I'm not sure what's so strange. People do things all the time that they're ashamed of. And being ashamed is not a bad thing. It comes from having a conscience and can be a major impetus for positive change in a person's life.
January 11, 2009 11:31 PM
Anonymous said...
Give it a rest, Kennedy.
The guy has said he has homosexual temptations, in his view, because of some bad experiences as a child.
He says he has been able to maintain a good relationship with his wife.
He says he believes homosexuality is wrong and he should resist such feelings and focus on his heterosexual feelings.
Your objection is that you think he should take the same view of homosexuality as you.
He's not advocating laws but you object to his religious beliefs.
Yet, no one's requiring you to believe them.
January 11, 2009 11:35 PM
Anonymous said...
Haggard's free to act on his beliefs as long as they don't cause harm, just like all of us. But Anon claimed The guy has said he has homosexual temptations, in his view, because of some bad experiences as a child.
No, he did not say that, he said the exact opposite of that. The article excerpted and linked to above in this blog thread reports:
During a guest sermon last November at a friend's church in Illinois, Haggard said a co-worker of his father molested him when he was 7, an experience that "started to produce fruit" later. Clarifying that Friday, Haggard said: "I'm certainly not saying that because of that, I did this."
Stick to the facts, do not spin Haggard's words to change their meaning. Haggard himself, after two years of ongoing therapy, said he did not engage a male prostitute and purchase drugs because of what happened to him as a child.
January 12, 2009 7:44 AM
Anonymous said...
"Haggard's free to act on his beliefs as long as they don't cause harm, just like all of us."
And how do his beliefs cause harm? Perhaps you mean what Jim said:
"A positive direction would be to come out to his congregation and tell them, gay people are just people, like me. We don't choose to be the way we are, we just are,"
I don't think Haggard, or anyone else, is saying gay people aren't "people". He is saying that homosexuality is a sin. Christian theology holds that all people are sinners so he would also believe gay people are "people, like me." As for choice, he's saying he suffers temptation but believes he should resist it. Whether you can choose your temptations is irrelevant.
Bea:
"But Anon claimed The guy has said he has homosexual temptations, in his view, because of some bad experiences as a child.
No, he did not say that, he said the exact opposite of that. The article excerpted and linked to above in this blog thread reports:
During a guest sermon last November at a friend's church in Illinois, Haggard said a co-worker of his father molested him when he was 7, an experience that "started to produce fruit" later. Clarifying that Friday, Haggard said: "I'm certainly not saying that because of that, I did this."
Stick to the facts, do not spin Haggard's words to change their meaning."
You're a trip, Bea. Did you take a lot of acid in your younger days?
I said he was saying he suffered temptation because he was abused. That's what he meant by "fruit".
When he "clarified" it was to say that is not an excuse for his actions. That's what he meant when he said: "I'm certainly not saying that because of that, I did this."
Feelings and actions aren't the same although I know that in TTFland, the idea that every impulse need not be indulged is considered horrid.
January 12, 2009 8:50 AM
Anonymous said...
Anonymous Troll: Marital infidelity is a sin; divorce (in many religious communities - does that include yours?) is considered a sin. The list of Biblical injuctions and church-created sins is legion. How do you condemn these sins? Why do you place such a "premimium" on homosexuality? Are you projecting some of your inner-most fears?
January 12, 2009 10:23 AM
Anonymous said...
well, I agree that homosexuality is too often regarded as a worse sin than it is
to listen to some, you'd think it was worse than murder
I could only speculate on why that is but, in truth, non-religious individuals seem to feel the same way religious people do
January 12, 2009 10:43 AM
Anonymous said...
Non-heterosexual orientation and gender identity are not temptations, equivalent to such things as wanting to cheat on your taxes (or on your wife); they are fundamental characteristics of the people involved.
Anonymous repeats the "sinners like us, and we love you all" shibboleth, oh so predictably.
Yawn.
I feel for Haggard. He lead a double life for many years, and the people in his life encourage him to express himself the way he does, and to try to continue to deceive himself into straightness. If he had some gay friends, he'd be much better off.
I guess since I commented on the anonymoids comments, he can comment on mine.
January 12, 2009 10:45 AM
Anonymous said...
"Non-heterosexual orientation and gender identity are not temptations, equivalent to such things as wanting to cheat on your taxes (or on your wife); they are fundamental characteristics of the people involved."
This is your opinion, which is fine, but Haggard differs and this is an area that is beyond the physical realm where empirical evidence isn't available.
That's for granting me permission to respond. The lunatic fringe could use a lot more guys like you!
The point is, Anon, that one's gender identity and sexual orientation are, indeed, physical, or material, if you prefer. For us to have evolved otherwise makes no sense.
How we deal with those human functions and realities involves choice, but not the fundamental fact of who we are.
January 12, 2009 12:18 PM
Anonymous said...
"The point is, Anon, that one's gender identity and sexual orientation are, indeed, physical, or material, if you prefer."
That's non-verifiable.
January 12, 2009 1:18 PM
Anonymous said...
"Haggard's free to act on his beliefs as long as they don't cause harm, just like all of us."
And how do his beliefs cause harm?
I didn't say "beliefs cause harm." I said "Haggard's free to act on his beliefs as long as they don't cause harm, just like all of us." Acting on beliefs can cause harm. Remember 9/11?
You're a trip, Bea. Did you take a lot of acid in your younger days?
No, I didn't. Are you the Anon who said you smoked pot in the back of your MCPS classrooms?
I said he was saying he suffered temptation because he was abused. That's what he meant by "fruit".
No you didn't. You said "The guy has said he has homosexual temptations, in his view, because of some bad experiences as a child."
And no Haggard didn't say he "has" temptation "because of some bad experiences as a child." He said, "I'm certainly not saying that because of that, I did this."
Feelings and actions aren't the same
Of course they aren't the same which is why I mentioned both "to act on" and "beliefs." You should read more carefully next time so you won't skip words like "to act on."
I guess it was reading comprehension class...
January 12, 2009 7:08 PM
Anonymous said...
I believe the correct description can be easily described in a single word: HYPOCRITE. End of story.
January 12, 2009 8:00 PM
Anonymous said...
The one who lacks reading comprehension is you, Bea. Your response is so weak, we'll leave it alone.
January 12, 2009 9:07 PM
Anonymous said...
Jim's riht, Mr. Haggard's first step is to forgive himself, and to forgive God.
January 13, 2009 11:46 AM
Anonymous said...
Andrea- not anon I thought the problem was Haggard having sex with a male prostitute and using meth- after being a loudmouth homophobe from the pulpit. Now if his wife wants to be with him and some church wants to let him preach- ok- but I think the wife and the new church are fools.
January 14, 2009 1:42 PM
Ted Haggard was a powerful Baptist minister, president of the National Association of Evangelicals, he was an anti-gay homosexual. His story came to light when a gay prostitute squealed on him. Turns out Ted was visiting this guy, doing meth, and when the guy realized how dangerously anti-gay Haggard was he went to the press.
It is bizarre and amazing now to watch Ted Haggard squirm, trying to be both gay and anti-gay, trying to win sympathy points while at the same time denigrating the gay population, of which he is a member. The AP caught up with him recently. Speaking out two years after being embroiled in a gay sex scandal, former evangelical pastor Ted Haggard said Friday his sexual identity is complex and can't be put into "stereotypical boxes," but that his relationship with his wife is stronger than ever.
In an interview with The Associated Press, Haggard did not rule out a return to public life or the pulpit. He spoke before he appeared before TV critics in Los Angeles to promote "The Trials of Ted Haggard," an HBO documentary on Haggard's exile after his confession to "sexual immorality" and fall as a top evangelical leader.
"I am guilty. I am responsible," Haggard, 52, said Friday in a phone interview. "I got off track, and I am deeply sorry and I repent ... I'm moving along in a positive direction." Pastor in gay scandal: I'm back from 'wilderness' A positive direction would be to come out to his congregation and tell them, gay people are just people, like me. We don't choose to be the way we are, we just are, and you need to learn to accept us as the caring and loving and fallible human beings that we are. Haggard resigned as president of the 30 million-member National Association of Evangelicals and was fired from the 14,000-member New Life Church in Colorado Springs, Colo., in November 2006 amid allegations that he paid a male prostitute for sex and used methamphetamine.
In a written apology at the time, Haggard confessed to a long battle against feelings contrary to his beliefs and admitted buying the drugs but said he never used them.
During a guest sermon last November at a friend's church in Illinois, Haggard said a co-worker of his father molested him when he was 7, an experience that "started to produce fruit" later. Clarifying that Friday, Haggard said: "I'm certainly not saying that because of that, I did this. I did what I did by my choice, and I'm responsible for it." And with these words he conveys to his millions of followers that gay people choose to be who they are. Haggard visited that particular gay prostitute by choice, perhaps, but he was driven by forces that he could not resist. He needed the love of a man, not by choice but because that's the way he is.
It is not clear to me whether he is backing off blaming his pedophile father for his sexual orientation. He seems to be holding that escape valve open, as if he did what he did by choice, but only because his father had molested him as a child. Again, misleading his followers about the roots of sexual orientation. Haggard said he isn't qualified to judge what factors into one's sexuality, but still believes it's "God's perfect plan" for marriage to be between a man and woman.
"I think sexuality is confusing and complex," Haggard said. "I am totally completely satisfied with the relationship with my wife now, but I went through a wandering in the wilderness time, and I just thank God I'm on the other side of that."
Asked whether he could define his sexual identity, Haggard said: "The stereotypical boxes don't work for me. My story's got some gray areas in it. And, of course, I'm sad about that but it's the reality." So maybe the guy's bisexual. As MCPS students learn, that is one of the three kinds of sexual orientation, you are attracted to both males and females. It's not something you choose, it's just how you are.
As for God's perfect plan, I'm sure in His plan everybody is good-looking, prosperous, and intelligent, but that isn't how the reality works out. In God's real world, you are dealt a hand and you play it out, you make the most of it. Ted Haggard has been given an incredible opportunity here to enlighten people, be generate understanding and spread love through the world, and he is using God's name to fail.
The stereotypical boxes don't work for anybody, and I don't just mean sexual orientation but everything. We are not a world of Rambos and Barbies. Ted Haggard is not some weird out-of-the-box exception to the stereotype, he is the stereotype, the confused, self-denying gay man in the closet. The problem is not being gay, or even being in the closet, the problem is the stereotypes -- both the stereotype of the gay man and the stereotype of "God's perfect plan."
We have watched this story unfold in parallel to our MoCo battle over the school sex-ed curriculum and our county's battle over a law that protects transgender people from discrimination. Ted Haggard was dragged kicking and screaming out of the closet, he went away for some kind of counseling, and if you remember, after two weeks he was declared "entirely heterosexual." Now he is saying he doesn't fit into the usual boxes, but of course he is just a regular person with homosexual feelings, there are millions like him, including millions who deny it like he does. He needs to take the next step and forgive himself, accept himself, and defend others who are like him.
"The Strange Case of Ted Haggard"
15 Comments -
I'm not sure what's so strange. People do things all the time that they're ashamed of. And being ashamed is not a bad thing. It comes from having a conscience and can be a major impetus for positive change in a person's life.
January 11, 2009 11:31 PM
Give it a rest, Kennedy.
The guy has said he has homosexual temptations, in his view, because of some bad experiences as a child.
He says he has been able to maintain a good relationship with his wife.
He says he believes homosexuality is wrong and he should resist such feelings and focus on his heterosexual feelings.
Your objection is that you think he should take the same view of homosexuality as you.
He's not advocating laws but you object to his religious beliefs.
Yet, no one's requiring you to believe them.
January 11, 2009 11:35 PM
Haggard's free to act on his beliefs as long as they don't cause harm, just like all of us. But Anon claimed The guy has said he has homosexual temptations, in his view, because of some bad experiences as a child.
No, he did not say that, he said the exact opposite of that. The article excerpted and linked to above in this blog thread reports:
During a guest sermon last November at a friend's church in Illinois, Haggard said a co-worker of his father molested him when he was 7, an experience that "started to produce fruit" later. Clarifying that Friday, Haggard said: "I'm certainly not saying that because of that, I did this."
Stick to the facts, do not spin Haggard's words to change their meaning. Haggard himself, after two years of ongoing therapy, said he did not engage a male prostitute and purchase drugs because of what happened to him as a child.
January 12, 2009 7:44 AM
"Haggard's free to act on his beliefs as long as they don't cause harm, just like all of us."
And how do his beliefs cause harm? Perhaps you mean what Jim said:
"A positive direction would be to come out to his congregation and tell them, gay people are just people, like me. We don't choose to be the way we are, we just are,"
I don't think Haggard, or anyone else, is saying gay people aren't "people". He is saying that homosexuality is a sin. Christian theology holds that all people are sinners so he would also believe gay people are "people, like me." As for choice, he's saying he suffers temptation but believes he should resist it. Whether you can choose your temptations is irrelevant.
Bea:
"But Anon claimed The guy has said he has homosexual temptations, in his view, because of some bad experiences as a child.
No, he did not say that, he said the exact opposite of that. The article excerpted and linked to above in this blog thread reports:
During a guest sermon last November at a friend's church in Illinois, Haggard said a co-worker of his father molested him when he was 7, an experience that "started to produce fruit" later. Clarifying that Friday, Haggard said: "I'm certainly not saying that because of that, I did this."
Stick to the facts, do not spin Haggard's words to change their meaning."
You're a trip, Bea. Did you take a lot of acid in your younger days?
I said he was saying he suffered temptation because he was abused. That's what he meant by "fruit".
When he "clarified" it was to say that is not an excuse for his actions. That's what he meant when he said: "I'm certainly not saying that because of that, I did this."
Feelings and actions aren't the same although I know that in TTFland, the idea that every impulse need not be indulged is considered horrid.
January 12, 2009 8:50 AM
Anonymous Troll: Marital infidelity is a sin; divorce (in many religious communities - does that include yours?) is considered a sin. The list of Biblical injuctions and church-created sins is legion. How do you condemn these sins? Why do you place such a "premimium" on homosexuality? Are you projecting some of your inner-most fears?
January 12, 2009 10:23 AM
well, I agree that homosexuality is too often regarded as a worse sin than it is
to listen to some, you'd think it was worse than murder
I could only speculate on why that is but, in truth, non-religious individuals seem to feel the same way religious people do
January 12, 2009 10:43 AM
Non-heterosexual orientation and gender identity are not temptations, equivalent to such things as wanting to cheat on your taxes (or on your wife); they are fundamental characteristics of the people involved.
Anonymous repeats the "sinners like us, and we love you all" shibboleth, oh so predictably.
Yawn.
I feel for Haggard. He lead a double life for many years, and the people in his life encourage him to express himself the way he does, and to try to continue to deceive himself into straightness. If he had some gay friends, he'd be much better off.
I guess since I commented on the anonymoids comments, he can comment on mine.
January 12, 2009 10:45 AM
"Non-heterosexual orientation and gender identity are not temptations, equivalent to such things as wanting to cheat on your taxes (or on your wife); they are fundamental characteristics of the people involved."
This is your opinion, which is fine, but Haggard differs and this is an area that is beyond the physical realm where empirical evidence isn't available.
That's for granting me permission to respond. The lunatic fringe could use a lot more guys like you!
January 12, 2009 11:54 AM
The point is, Anon, that one's gender identity and sexual orientation are, indeed, physical, or material, if you prefer. For us to have evolved otherwise makes no sense.
How we deal with those human functions and realities involves choice, but not the fundamental fact of who we are.
January 12, 2009 12:18 PM
"The point is, Anon, that one's gender identity and sexual orientation are, indeed, physical, or material, if you prefer."
That's non-verifiable.
January 12, 2009 1:18 PM
"Haggard's free to act on his beliefs as long as they don't cause harm, just like all of us."
And how do his beliefs cause harm?
I didn't say "beliefs cause harm." I said "Haggard's free to act on his beliefs as long as they don't cause harm, just like all of us." Acting on beliefs can cause harm. Remember 9/11?
You're a trip, Bea. Did you take a lot of acid in your younger days?
No, I didn't. Are you the Anon who said you smoked pot in the back of your MCPS classrooms?
I said he was saying he suffered temptation because he was abused. That's what he meant by "fruit".
No you didn't. You said "The guy has said he has homosexual temptations, in his view, because of some bad experiences as a child."
And no Haggard didn't say he "has" temptation "because of some bad experiences as a child." He said, "I'm certainly not saying that because of that, I did this."
Feelings and actions aren't the same
Of course they aren't the same which is why I mentioned both "to act on" and "beliefs." You should read more carefully next time so you won't skip words like "to act on."
I guess it was reading comprehension class...
January 12, 2009 7:08 PM
I believe the correct description can be easily described in a single word: HYPOCRITE.
End of story.
January 12, 2009 8:00 PM
The one who lacks reading comprehension is you, Bea. Your response is so weak, we'll leave it alone.
January 12, 2009 9:07 PM
Jim's riht, Mr. Haggard's first step is to forgive himself, and to forgive God.
January 13, 2009 11:46 AM
Andrea- not anon
I thought the problem was Haggard having sex with a male prostitute and using meth- after being a loudmouth homophobe from the pulpit. Now if his wife wants to be with him and some church wants to let him preach- ok- but I think the wife and the new church are fools.
January 14, 2009 1:42 PM