Excellent piece, David. Thanks for posting it, Jim.
It's sad that groups like PFOX are so intent on making the mental health of individuals sickened.
May 07, 2008 4:17 PM
Anonymous said...
so let me get this straight.
It is innate if you want it be innate...and you feel it is innate and can't be changed...
but for the article a couple weeks ago about the women that went back and forth between men and women, they are innately bi-sexual ? Or they are innately not innate ?
Huh ????
How does you guys rationalize this, please ?
I'm having a little bit of trouble following the logic here.
Confused Anon.
May 07, 2008 9:22 PM
Anonymous said...
Anon, you are trying to find logic where there is none. It's biology. Do zebras innately have stripes? What about albino zebras? What, they're not zebras?
Bisexual people are attracted to both sexes, sometimes they may identify socially one way more than the other, but there's no logical contradiction there. Most people are heterosexual, some are homosexual, some are bisexual... some people are not sexual at all, they don't like anybody! Get over it, you haven't found any logical contradiction here.
There are human beings who are innately androphilic, and those who are innately gynephilic, and those who are innately amphiphilic.
That's it. Psychiatrists and psychologists have been searching for environmental/parental causes of homosexuality for over a hundred years, and have failed. Why do you find it so difficult to accept this?
The right wing approach does nothing more than impose a terrible sense of responsibility and guilt on parents, blaming them for something completely outside their control.
You can be a fundamentalist Christian and still recognize that one of the most critical aspects of human physiology, which would certainly be conserved through evolution because it is necessary for procreation, would be sexual orientation. Why would such an important characteristic be left up to chance, to education, when it can much more easily be hardwired (since it is that way through the animal kingdom)? Why does the right wing imagine that humans are so fundamentally different, when we know that is clearly no longer the case?
It is innate if you want it be innate...and you feel it is innate and can't be changed...
but for the article a couple weeks ago about the women that went back and forth between men and women, they are innately bi-sexual ? Or they are innately not innate ?
Huh ????
How does you guys rationalize this, please ?
I'm having a little bit of trouble following the logic here." -- "they are innately bi-sexual ? Or they are innately not innate ?"
Those are actually really good questions.
I don’t understand it myself. I know that for me, my sexuality is one-sided and fixed, so it isn’t my place to “rationalize” otherwise. I am out of the loop on that one, and as such, I am not responsible for ‘rationalizing’ it.
Wherein lies the problem. You seem to be seeking a binary definition of sexuality. So be it, but the direction to whom your questions are posed, is misplaced.
Only women who go “back and forth between men and women,” can truly answer as to whether they’re “innately bi-sexual ? Or they are innately not innate ?”
It is unfair to suggest that anyone other than them should speak for them.
So basically, I’m confused about it too. Which is why I don't judge it as anything other than an aspect of human sexualtiy.
May 08, 2008 2:54 AM
Anonymous said...
Truthfully, if an adult thinks going from gay to "(not) straight" is possible, that is their choice (however, we know it doesn't work…).
What I have against PFOX and Love In Action is that they are targeting teens and parents can now force their child into such programs. That breaks my heart.
How does this end up?
Time after time, people go public about their horrific experience in such programs and then parents realize that they made a horrible mistake by forcing their child into the program.
How many lives have to be ruined and tainted before the politicians and public wake up?????
May 08, 2008 7:29 AM
Anonymous said...
Truthfully, if an adult thinks going from gay to "(not) straight" is possible, that is their choice (however, we know it doesn't work…).
What I have against PFOX and Love In Action is that they are targeting teens and parents can now force their child into such programs. That breaks my heart.
How does this end up?
Time after time, people go public about their horrific experience in such programs and then parents realize that they made a horrible mistake by forcing their child into the program.
How many lives have to be ruined and tainted before the politicians and public wake up?????
May 08, 2008 7:29 AM
Anonymous said...
"Psychiatrists and psychologists have been searching for environmental/parental causes of homosexuality for over a hundred years, and have failed. Why do you find it so difficult to accept this?"
Actually no replicated tests have found sexual desire for one's own gender to be innate and virtually all scientists believe it is caused by a combination of both nature and nurture.
Which is to say: they have no idea whether it is innate or immutable. They have no idea what causes deviant sexual desires. We do know that there are many more people who say they have experienced attraction to both genders than there are those who say they are exclusively attracted to those of their same gender.
Those who say science has concluded on anything about this are lying.
And, we know why you find that so difficult to accept.
May 08, 2008 12:27 PM
Anonymous said...
"What I have against PFOX and Love In Action is that they are targeting teens and parents can now force their child into such programs. That breaks my heart."
What I have against the school system is that they are targeting teens, introducing a lifestyle as normal and healthy without warning kids of the accompanying medical risks unique to the lifestyle. Encouraging kids as young as 13 to self identify as heterosexual, homosexual or bi-sexual when most parents are telling kids NOT to have sex at that age.
That breaks my heart.
May 08, 2008 12:27 PM
Anonymous said...
These last Anonymous lies sound like a direct quote from the CRC. Amazing, they cling to this crap.
"Anonymous" said... "Since when is homosexual-sexuality, or bisexual-sexuality, about "sex," any more than heterosexual-sexuality is about sex?"
Since the garden. -- Well, that’s a perfectly loverly sentiment, but we’ve come a long way since then baby. Haven’t we?
If you would like to discuss all the complications of “man’s fallen nature” since “the garden,” I think you know that I am more than capable of rising to the challenge.
But that would essentially be off topic, and as such, unuseful in the forum at hand.
So, until time and topic space permit, I think it prudent that we stick to the subject at hand.
That subject being namely, that you will accept nothing less, than the religious teaching of “the garden,” as the be-all end-all to human sexuality, in every public school in the nation, AND THAT YOU ARE UNWILLING TO ADMIT THIS.
May 08, 2008 3:37 PM
Anonymous said...
Funny how three words can so threaten and enrage emslob and dricksnot.
Let's see if it'll work again:
Homosexuality ain't innate.
May 08, 2008 5:04 PM
Anonymous said...
I'm not enraged, AnonFreak.
Because I know you're wrong :-)
You can believe whatever you want to in your little hateful bigoted world.
May 08, 2008 5:19 PM
Anonymous said...
Andrea-not anon Well, it is settled - MN anon with his degrees in biology, psychology, medicine, psychiatry and chemistry says Homosexuality is not innate. So I guess that settles it. Case closed.
May 08, 2008 6:28 PM
Anonymous said...
"Well, it is settled - MN anon with his degrees in biology, psychology, medicine, psychiatry and chemistry says Homosexuality is not innate."
All the guys with those degrees say the same thing, Dreary. Sorry, facts are facts. Even in your sad little Orwellian world where an propaganda group calls itself "Teach the Facts." The latest APA brochure admits this. Why can't you?
May 08, 2008 9:04 PM
Anonymous said...
AnonFreak- And you continue to say that being gay is an illness. You're not just wrong (scientifically and philosophically), you're also quite unbearable.
Tell the difference between you (AnonFreak) and the Westboro Baptist Church again.
May 08, 2008 9:54 PM
Anonymous said...
"And you continue to say that being gay is an illness. You're not just wrong (scientifically and philosophically),"
Let's see your scientific evidence and/or philosophical argument, Drickfreak.
Oh I see, since they don't support YOUR point of view, then they are suspect. Frankly, I trust the opinions of two prominent well-known healthcare organizations than an anonymous poster I have never met.
May 09, 2008 10:52 AM
Anonymous said...
No, they're suspect because they are an organized body, subject to the vicissitudes of political pressure. Matter of fact, when the APA first decided that homosexuality was not a mental illness, in 1973, they were pressured by a very aggressive gay lobby and, according to polls, the majority of mental health practitioners did not agree with the association's change of position.
"Psychologists, psychiatrists and other mental health professionals agree that homosexuality is not an illness, mental disorder or an emotional problem. Over 35 years of objective, well-designed scientific research has shown that homosexuality, in and itself,is not associated with mental disorders or emotional or social problems. Homosexuality was once thought to be a mental illness because mental health professionals and society had biased information. In the past the studies of gay, lesbian and bisexual people involved only those in therapy, thus biasing the resulting conclusions. When researchers examined data about these people who were not in therapy, the idea that homosexuality was a mental illness was quickly found to be untrue.
In 1973 the American Psychiatric Association confirmed the importance of the new, better designed research and removed homosexuality from the official manual that lists mental and emotional disorders. Two years later, the American Psychological Association passed a resolution supporting the removal. For more than 25 years, both associations have urged all mental health professionals to help dispel the stigma of mental illness that some people still associate with homosexual orientation."
That's over 35 years of research my friend. Also, I noticed that you ignored the opinion of the American Psychological Association.
Or are you awaiting for an excuse about an "aggressive gay lobby" that will be brought to you by your friendly neighbor anti-gay industry?
May 09, 2008 1:37 PM
Anonymous said...
What 35 years of research proved this? Let's hear a few details.
In 1973, what "new, better designed research" was available?
Surely, you must have some knowledge of this vast mountain of research considering your obsession with the topic.
Please share.
An ignorant world breathlessly awaits!
May 09, 2008 2:02 PM
Anonymous said...
Andrea- not anon But we know that any organized medical group that doesn't say homosexuality is wrong, an illness, a sin is a bad group and do not represent their members. Focus on the Family, PFOX, ADF, Liberty Counsel which have no science at all, etc are good and honest groups because they say the opposite. thank you once again, Anon, for clearing that up. I might even believe the world was flat if you said it was round.
May 09, 2008 2:06 PM
Anonymous said...
Andrea- not anon But we know that any organized medical group that doesn't say homosexuality is wrong, an illness, a sin is a bad group and do not represent their members. Focus on the Family, PFOX, ADF, Liberty Counsel which have no science at all, etc are good and honest groups because they say the opposite. thank you once again, Anon, for clearing that up. I might even believe the world was flat if you said it was round.
May 09, 2008 2:06 PM
Anonymous said...
When the APA states it cannot determine the precise cause of sexual orientation, Anon supports the group, but when the APA states that homosexuality is not a disease, Anon doesn't support the group.
Sometime in the next 35 years when additional research on this topic is conducted, the genes involved in the determination of sexual orientation will be identified. Then these researchers can move on to studies that will determine if homophobia is learned or innate.
We already know that phobias, like Anon's major case of homophobia, are mental illnesses.
May 09, 2008 2:41 PM
Anonymous said...
This is really remarkable. I never said homosexuality was an illness. I simply asked, in response to one of your irrational supporters who said that science has proved this, if they would explain how science has proved this.
This is a mark of lunatic fringe gay advocacy: extreme umbrage at the very thought that science hasn't completely and conclusively established their viewpoint.
Over the years, we have provided the evidence on this blog. People have taken hours putting it together, and apparently you have ignored it. You think that by repeatedly saying "show me the evidence" you're going to convince any but your fundamentalist friends that there really is no evidence. You're failing -- I have never heard from anyone who reads this blog that they share your ideology.
You're a religious extremist who shames the religion in which you purport to believe to those of different faiths. You are scientifically ignorant and worse, willfully hostile to science. And to top it off, you are generally very rude and crude to your fellow bloggers. Nice job.
May 10, 2008 8:27 AM
Anonymous said...
"Over the years, we have provided the evidence on this blog. People have taken hours putting it together, and apparently you have ignored it. You think that by repeatedly saying "show me the evidence" you're going to convince any but your fundamentalist friends that there really is no evidence."
You have never, ever put up any evidence that homosexuality is not a mental illness. If there is some, put it in the TTF reference section and reference it. No need to spend hours more on it.
Truth is, to determine whether something is a mental illness, you have to decide what is the normal mental state, a subjective evaluation.
Again, the lunatic gay fringe conceit is that science has proved something it hasn't and then feign indignance at the thought that science hasn't justified their every idea.
You misuse science and then pretend to revere it. Nice job.
"You're failing -- I have never heard from anyone who reads this blog that they share your ideology."
People who read this blog have a predetermined viewpoint that they are motivated to believe in. They didn't stumble upon it in their quest for scientific truth.
"You're a religious extremist who shames the religion in which you purport to believe to those of different faiths."
My religious views are moderate. Yours are extreme.
"You are scientifically ignorant and worse, willfully hostile to science."
Despite your education, you've espoused many opinions here that even a layman would recognize as illogical.
"And to top it off, you are generally very rude and crude to your fellow bloggers. Nice job."
I been treated rudely and crudely, although most here are so far gone, they'd never notice. Truth is you're most offended when I speak most civilly. Many of your commenters have complained that I make "bigotry" seem so fair and rational. Your problem with my approach is not it's crudeness. Indeed, part of the gay game is to try and provoke the other side and then gripe about the reaction. Right?
Anonymous said... You have never, ever put up any evidence that homosexuality is not a mental illness. If there is some, put it in the TTF reference section and reference it. No need to spend hours more on it. -- While you’re at it, put in some evidence that the Earth is not flat. You’ve never provided scientific evidence of that either.
May 12, 2008 9:07 AM
Anonymous said...
Oh, that's been known for thousands of years, emslob.
As soon as man began sailing ships, he noticed that, as it sailed into the horizon, the hull disappeared before the mast.
Of course, it wasn't a peer-reviewed finding because Christians had not yet invented the scientific method.
Spare me. Any fool who walks out their front door (sans hillfolk) can clearly see that the Earth is flat.
It's even in the Bible:
Ezekiel 7:2: "Son of man, this is what the Sovereign LORD says to the land of Israel: The end! The end has come upon the four corners of the land."
And Revelations 7:1: "After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth to prevent any wind from blowing on the land or on the sea or on any tree."
And Revelations 20:8: "and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore." -- I really don't think it's wise of you to challenge God on this. Unless you're suggesting that you know better than God.
May 13, 2008 6:20 AM
Anonymous said...
Emproph said:
“Spare me. Any fool who walks out their front door (sans hillfolk) can clearly see that the Earth is flat.
It's even in the Bible:”
---
“When the earth was still flat, and the clouds made of fire, And the mountains stretched up to the sky, sometimes higher…”
Thanks for reminding my of my favorite creation myth Emproph. It’s called “Origin of Love” by Hedwig and the Angry Inch. You can find it here on YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-YO9FpWX57E I hope everyone enjoys it as much as I do.
Peace,
Cynthia
May 13, 2008 9:58 AM
Anonymous said...
emslob
You're an idiot. When Revelation was written, it was common knowledge that the Earth was round. The language is metaphorical just like when Bob Ryan says the sun rose.
So you’re saying that you were there at the time of Revelations, and that reincarnation is true?
You know anon (deluxe or otherwise), it’s really not up to us as to how many lifetimes we have. God’s Word clearly states that:
Hebrews 9:27: Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment -- I can’t imagine that your "destining" for man to die more than once, bodes well for your salvation status.
May 13, 2008 11:35 AM
David Fishback is the former chair of the MCPS Citizens Advisory Committee for Family Health and Human Development, he's on the board of Metro-DC PFLAG, and he has been a central character in TeachTheFact.org's activities over the years. He has written up a reaction to Monday's story about "ex-gays" on Channel Seven. His post starts by quoting the entire online text of the report, and then discusses important aspects of it, better than when I said it was "unbelievably terrible" and "sickening." David's always good for a clear, reasonable analysis of a complicated situation.
Here is his text: THE PROBLEMS WITH THE WJLA REPORT
I think it useful to look at the entire text of the WJLA piece on its website HERE.
***************************************************** The idea that a person can change their sexual preference is beginning to become a major debate with gay activists because of an upcoming book, "The Born Gay Hoax".
Author Ryan Sorba was speaking at Smith College about his upcoming book, "The Born Gay Hoax," when gay protesters began taking over shouting, "We're here, we're queer, get used to it!" Soon Sorba was overrun and drowned out. Police finally arrived and advised Sorba to leave for his own safety. An example, some say, of how militant gay activists hijacked public debate on homosexuality.
"A person may not be happy being gay! I mean, has anyone ever thought of that," David exclaimed.
David, 34, said he would be afraid of being harassed by gays, if he were to be identified. He said he wanted "out of the gay life" that contradicted his faith and left him feeling empty, so he underwent so-called "reparative therapy". "I'm working on becoming more heterosexual," he said, "I believe that it is possible." "I believe feelings can change and I found feelings to change."
Scott Melendez, who is gay, said that he prayed to be straight, "No matter how much I believed that God would deliver me or make me straight, it never happened."
Melendez had a whole different view. He believed that people were born gay and that they should accept it. "I finally just realized that God loved me exactly the way I am and He didn't make a mistake."
In 1973, the mainstream scientific community declared homosexuality no longer a mental disorder and it warns now that trying to change a person's sexual preference could leave a person confused and depressed.
Scientists still don't know why a person is gay.
Dr. James Scully with the American Psychiatric Association said "There's actually been no definitive studies to decide what causes homosexuality."
So the debate rages on, with websites touting programs to help people go straight or at least to help them learn to control same-sex impulses. Yet there were no hard numbers on results and others blasted ex-gay methods as futile and ridiculous.
Wayne Besen with TruthWinsOut.org said, "It destroys people, it shatters families, it ruins lives, and it's being promoted by right-wing political groups."
With many struggling to reconcile feelings with their faith and absent hard science, many still maintain homosexuality is triggered by childhood abuse or poor relationships and people should be freed to choose which path to take.
"Homosexual activists are talking about personal choice, freedom and so forth, but they deny personal choice and freedom for those who wish to seek change," said Peter Sprigg with the organization, Parents and Families of Ex-Gays.
Gay activists applauded the cancellation of the American Psychiatric Association's workshop Monday. They called it a ploy by the religious right, but Dr. David Scasta who is a gay psychiatrist said he worked two years trying to setup the workshop. He just wanted to move beyond the shouting and bashing. He said he might try again next year.
******************************************************************* The actual video may be viewed HERE. That version framed the issue as a conflict between "militant homosexuals" and those who wish to have calm discussion of the question of whether people can change their sexual orientation.
I have several observations:
1. The piece leads with something about one Ryan Sorba, who has written a book entitled The Born Gay Hoax. Given the scientific consensus that sexual orientation is not chosen, I was curious to find out Mr. Sorba's qualifications for attacking the scientific consensus. It took a little time, because his blog and other things on the web seem to avoid that. Finally, I found that he has a bachelor's degree in psychology by Cal State-San Bernadino. See HERE
Before leading with such an item, I would think that WJLA would want to inquire as to whether Mr. Sorba is a reputable scholar and researcher in the field, or just a right-wing ideologue. A Google search reveals that the latter is the case.
2. It is noteworthy that while WJLA contacted and quoted Peter Sprigg of PFOX (a shell organization if ever there was one), without mentioning that his principal affiliation is as Vice President of James Dobson's Family Research Council), but did not even bother to contact Metro DC PFLAG – a real organization representing actual people.
3. The piece does set forth "both sides" of the substantive dispute, but does so with only a peremptory nod to the scientific consensus, without even mentioning the recent American Psychological Association's publication Just the Facts About Sexual Orientation and Youth (READ HERE) which lays out the facts and details the dangers of so-called reparative or conversion therapies.
4. The most egregious portion of the WJLA report is the following statement: "With many struggling to reconcile feelings with their faith and absent hard science, many still maintain homosexuality is triggered by childhood abuse or poor relationships and people should be freed to choose which path to take."
But who are the "many [who] still maintain homosexuality" is so triggered? WJLA does not say. This viewpoint has been rejected outright by the scientific community for decades. For example, the American Academy of Pediatrics, in its Guidance for Clinicians on Sexual Orientation and Adolescents, unequivocally states that "there is no scientific evidence that abnormal parenting, sexual abuse, or other adverse life events influence sexual orientation." READ HERE). No reputable scientific or medical researcher believes what WJLA says that "many still maintain." For WJLA to not so state in its report was irresponsible. The canard that bad parenting causes homosexuality has been used by theological ideologues to drive wedges between parents and children for too long to let the canard go unanswered. For WJLA to set forth the "many still maintain" statement without more was irresponsible.
5. I believe that the piece entirely misses the key question underlying the controversy: Why do some people want to change their sexual orientations in the face of the reality, confirmed by the mainstream scientific community, that people cannot will themselves to change their orientation?
Some conservative religious groups tell people that being gay is contrary to God's plan and that therefore they should try to change their sexual orientation. But this is where theology runs directly into mental health issues, since it is clear that real, purposeful change of sexual orientation is simply not possible.
I suspect, but do not know, that Dr. Scasta's intention was to have a discussion about whether and/or how gay people who wish to follow the theology of the particular religious communities into which they were born can find contentment in celibacy. On an earlier string on this blog, I asked Warren Throckmorton if his view was that gay people really could change and, if not, whether that meant they should be live-long celibates, giving up the joys of monogamous intimacy. He did not respond. I was disappointed that he did not respond, because a discussion of the intersection of theology and mental health is important. The problem, as Dr. Scasta may have discovered, is that many people have good reason to be suspicious of the agendas of the leaders of the "ex-gay" approach.
Is Professor Throckmorton approaching these sorts of discussions starting from a common ground of a scientific understanding of sexual orientation, or is his agenda still to assert – in the face of all the evidence to the contrary – that people cannot purposely change their orientation? If the latter, there is no point of having him on panels discussing mental health. Moreover, if the latter, then the appropriate place for him to speak would be in debates about the science regarding whether people can change their orientation – but given the scientific consensus on that point, such debates would be akin to debates about whether the Earth is round or flat. But even if this were an open question, Professor Throckmorton has done no peer reviewed research which would contribute to such a scientific discussion.
6. So WJLA's framing of its report with students at Smith College yelling at Mr. Sorba distracts from the real issues here. The visual may be good television entertainment, but it is deficient journalism.
David S. Fishback Board Member, Metro DC Chapter of PFLAG (Parents, Families, and Friends of Lesbians and Gays)
"Fishback Addresses Channel Seven Presentation"
42 Comments -
Excellent piece, David. Thanks for posting it, Jim.
It's sad that groups like PFOX are so intent on making the mental health of individuals sickened.
May 07, 2008 4:17 PM
so let me get this straight.
It is innate if you want it be innate...and you feel it is innate and can't be changed...
but for the article a couple weeks ago about the women that went back and forth between men and women, they are innately bi-sexual ? Or they are innately not innate ?
Huh ????
How does you guys rationalize this, please ?
I'm having a little bit of trouble following the logic here.
Confused Anon.
May 07, 2008 9:22 PM
Anon, you are trying to find logic where there is none. It's biology. Do zebras innately have stripes? What about albino zebras? What, they're not zebras?
Bisexual people are attracted to both sexes, sometimes they may identify socially one way more than the other, but there's no logical contradiction there. Most people are heterosexual, some are homosexual, some are bisexual... some people are not sexual at all, they don't like anybody! Get over it, you haven't found any logical contradiction here.
May 07, 2008 9:34 PM
Confused Anon,
There are human beings who are innately androphilic, and those who are innately gynephilic, and those who are innately amphiphilic.
That's it. Psychiatrists and psychologists have been searching for environmental/parental causes of homosexuality for over a hundred years, and have failed. Why do you find it so difficult to accept this?
The right wing approach does nothing more than impose a terrible sense of responsibility and guilt on parents, blaming them for something completely outside their control.
You can be a fundamentalist Christian and still recognize that one of the most critical aspects of human physiology, which would certainly be conserved through evolution because it is necessary for procreation, would be sexual orientation. Why would such an important characteristic be left up to chance, to education, when it can much more easily be hardwired (since it is that way through the animal kingdom)? Why does the right wing imagine that humans are so fundamentally different, when we know that is clearly no longer the case?
May 07, 2008 10:11 PM
Confused Anon said…
"so let me get this straight.
It is innate if you want it be innate...and you feel it is innate and can't be changed...
but for the article a couple weeks ago about the women that went back and forth between men and women, they are innately bi-sexual ? Or they are innately not innate ?
Huh ????
How does you guys rationalize this, please ?
I'm having a little bit of trouble following the logic here."
--
"they are innately bi-sexual ? Or they are innately not innate ?"
Those are actually really good questions.
I don’t understand it myself. I know that for me, my sexuality is one-sided and fixed, so it isn’t my place to “rationalize” otherwise. I am out of the loop on that one, and as such, I am not responsible for ‘rationalizing’ it.
Wherein lies the problem. You seem to be seeking a binary definition of sexuality. So be it, but the direction to whom your questions are posed, is misplaced.
Only women who go “back and forth between men and women,” can truly answer as to whether they’re “innately bi-sexual ? Or they are innately not innate ?”
It is unfair to suggest that anyone other than them should speak for them.
So basically, I’m confused about it too. Which is why I don't judge it as anything other than an aspect of human sexualtiy.
May 08, 2008 2:54 AM
Truthfully, if an adult thinks going from gay to "(not) straight" is possible, that is their choice (however, we know it doesn't work…).
What I have against PFOX and Love In Action is that they are targeting teens and parents can now force their child into such programs. That breaks my heart.
How does this end up?
Time after time, people go public about their horrific experience in such programs and then parents realize that they made a horrible mistake by forcing their child into the program.
How many lives have to be ruined and tainted before the politicians and public wake up?????
May 08, 2008 7:29 AM
Truthfully, if an adult thinks going from gay to "(not) straight" is possible, that is their choice (however, we know it doesn't work…).
What I have against PFOX and Love In Action is that they are targeting teens and parents can now force their child into such programs. That breaks my heart.
How does this end up?
Time after time, people go public about their horrific experience in such programs and then parents realize that they made a horrible mistake by forcing their child into the program.
How many lives have to be ruined and tainted before the politicians and public wake up?????
May 08, 2008 7:29 AM
"Psychiatrists and psychologists have been searching for environmental/parental causes of homosexuality for over a hundred years, and have failed. Why do you find it so difficult to accept this?"
Actually no replicated tests have found sexual desire for one's own gender to be innate and virtually all scientists believe it is caused by a combination of both nature and nurture.
Which is to say: they have no idea whether it is innate or immutable. They have no idea what causes deviant sexual desires. We do know that there are many more people who say they have experienced attraction to both genders than there are those who say they are exclusively attracted to those of their same gender.
Those who say science has concluded on anything about this are lying.
And, we know why you find that so difficult to accept.
May 08, 2008 12:27 PM
"What I have against PFOX and Love In Action is that they are targeting teens and parents can now force their child into such programs. That breaks my heart."
What I have against the school system is that they are targeting teens, introducing a lifestyle as normal and healthy without warning kids of the accompanying medical risks unique to the lifestyle. Encouraging kids as young as 13 to self identify as heterosexual, homosexual or bi-sexual when most parents are telling kids NOT to have sex at that age.
That breaks my heart.
May 08, 2008 12:27 PM
These last Anonymous lies sound like a direct quote from the CRC. Amazing, they cling to this crap.
May 08, 2008 12:51 PM
"Encouraging kids as young as 13 to ... have sex at that age"
Is this really what you feel the health curriculum teaches?
Since when is homosexual-sexuality, or bisexual-sexuality, about "sex," any more than heterosexual-sexuality is about sex?
May 08, 2008 1:43 PM
"Since when is homosexual-sexuality, or bisexual-sexuality, about "sex," any more than heterosexual-sexuality is about sex?"
Since the garden.
May 08, 2008 2:44 PM
Oh, AnonFreak, I thought you were person Scientology faith?
Never mind... you believe in hate, oppression, anti-democracy, bigotry, racism, sexism, religious intolerance and murder.
I think that about sums up your "faith".
May 08, 2008 3:14 PM
"Anonymous" said...
"Since when is homosexual-sexuality, or bisexual-sexuality, about "sex," any more than heterosexual-sexuality is about sex?"
Since the garden.
--
Well, that’s a perfectly loverly sentiment, but we’ve come a long way since then baby. Haven’t we?
If you would like to discuss all the complications of “man’s fallen nature” since “the garden,” I think you know that I am more than capable of rising to the challenge.
But that would essentially be off topic, and as such, unuseful in the forum at hand.
So, until time and topic space permit, I think it prudent that we stick to the subject at hand.
That subject being namely, that you will accept nothing less, than the religious teaching of “the garden,” as the be-all end-all to human sexuality, in every public school in the nation, AND THAT YOU ARE UNWILLING TO ADMIT THIS.
May 08, 2008 3:37 PM
Funny how three words can so threaten and enrage emslob and dricksnot.
Let's see if it'll work again:
Homosexuality ain't innate.
May 08, 2008 5:04 PM
I'm not enraged, AnonFreak.
Because I know you're wrong :-)
You can believe whatever you want to in your little hateful bigoted world.
May 08, 2008 5:19 PM
Andrea-not anon
Well, it is settled - MN anon with his degrees in biology, psychology, medicine, psychiatry and chemistry says Homosexuality is not innate. So I guess that settles it. Case closed.
May 08, 2008 6:28 PM
"Well, it is settled - MN anon with his degrees in biology, psychology, medicine, psychiatry and chemistry says Homosexuality is not innate."
All the guys with those degrees say the same thing, Dreary. Sorry, facts are facts. Even in your sad little Orwellian world where an propaganda group calls itself "Teach the Facts." The latest APA brochure admits this. Why can't you?
May 08, 2008 9:04 PM
AnonFreak-
And you continue to say that being gay is an illness. You're not just wrong (scientifically and philosophically), you're also quite unbearable.
Tell the difference between you (AnonFreak) and the Westboro Baptist Church again.
May 08, 2008 9:54 PM
"And you continue to say that being gay is an illness. You're not just wrong (scientifically and philosophically),"
Let's see your scientific evidence and/or philosophical argument, Drickfreak.
May 08, 2008 11:17 PM
anonymous,
according to the American Psychological Association, the American Psychiatric Association, and a host of others, homosexuality is NOT an illness.
May 09, 2008 12:45 AM
Wonderful organizations, Tsu. Have you seen some of the other stuff they think is normal?
Let's see their scientific evidence and/or philosophical argument.
Tsu, Drickfreak, anybody...
May 09, 2008 6:44 AM
Oh I see, since they don't support YOUR point of view, then they are suspect. Frankly, I trust the opinions of two prominent well-known healthcare organizations than an anonymous poster I have never met.
May 09, 2008 10:52 AM
No, they're suspect because they are an organized body, subject to the vicissitudes of political pressure. Matter of fact, when the APA first decided that homosexuality was not a mental illness, in 1973, they were pressured by a very aggressive gay lobby and, according to polls, the majority of mental health practitioners did not agree with the association's change of position.
May 09, 2008 1:27 PM
From http://www.apa.org/topics/orientation.html -
"Psychologists, psychiatrists and other mental health professionals agree that homosexuality is not an illness, mental disorder or an emotional problem. Over 35 years of objective, well-designed scientific research has shown that homosexuality, in and itself,is not associated with mental disorders or emotional or social problems. Homosexuality was once thought to be a mental illness because mental health professionals and society had biased information. In the past the studies of gay, lesbian and bisexual people involved only those in therapy, thus biasing the resulting conclusions. When researchers examined data about these people who were not in therapy, the idea that homosexuality was a mental illness was quickly found to be untrue.
In 1973 the American Psychiatric Association confirmed the importance of the new, better designed research and removed homosexuality from the official manual that lists mental and emotional disorders. Two years later, the American Psychological Association passed a resolution supporting the removal. For more than 25 years, both associations have urged all mental health professionals to help dispel the stigma of mental illness that some people still associate with homosexual orientation."
That's over 35 years of research my friend. Also, I noticed that you ignored the opinion of the American Psychological Association.
Or are you awaiting for an excuse about an "aggressive gay lobby" that will be brought to you by your friendly neighbor anti-gay industry?
May 09, 2008 1:37 PM
What 35 years of research proved this? Let's hear a few details.
In 1973, what "new, better designed research" was available?
Surely, you must have some knowledge of this vast mountain of research considering your obsession with the topic.
Please share.
An ignorant world breathlessly awaits!
May 09, 2008 2:02 PM
Andrea- not anon
But we know that any organized medical group that doesn't say homosexuality is wrong, an illness, a sin is a bad group and do not represent their members. Focus on the Family, PFOX, ADF, Liberty Counsel which have no science at all, etc are good and honest groups because they say the opposite. thank you once again, Anon, for clearing that up. I might even believe the world was flat if you said it was round.
May 09, 2008 2:06 PM
Andrea- not anon
But we know that any organized medical group that doesn't say homosexuality is wrong, an illness, a sin is a bad group and do not represent their members. Focus on the Family, PFOX, ADF, Liberty Counsel which have no science at all, etc are good and honest groups because they say the opposite. thank you once again, Anon, for clearing that up. I might even believe the world was flat if you said it was round.
May 09, 2008 2:06 PM
When the APA states it cannot determine the precise cause of sexual orientation, Anon supports the group, but when the APA states that homosexuality is not a disease, Anon doesn't support the group.
Sometime in the next 35 years when additional research on this topic is conducted, the genes involved in the determination of sexual orientation will be identified. Then these researchers can move on to studies that will determine if homophobia is learned or innate.
We already know that phobias, like Anon's major case of homophobia, are mental illnesses.
May 09, 2008 2:41 PM
This is really remarkable. I never said homosexuality was an illness. I simply asked, in response to one of your irrational supporters who said that science has proved this, if they would explain how science has proved this.
This is a mark of lunatic fringe gay advocacy: extreme umbrage at the very thought that science hasn't completely and conclusively established their viewpoint.
In other words: damn the truth, full speed ahead!
May 09, 2008 3:48 PM
I take it that since I provided "scientific evidence" you are going to now pretend that you didn't ask the question.
Okay. have it your way.
May 09, 2008 4:52 PM
And the ad hominem attack about "lunatic fringe gay advocacy" really gives you credibility. (eyes rolling)
May 09, 2008 4:58 PM
"I take it that since I provided "scientific evidence" you are going to now pretend that you didn't ask the question."
You didn't do that, Balvin.
May 09, 2008 7:42 PM
Over the years, we have provided the evidence on this blog. People have taken hours putting it together, and apparently you have ignored it. You think that by repeatedly saying "show me the evidence" you're going to convince any but your fundamentalist friends that there really is no evidence. You're failing -- I have never heard from anyone who reads this blog that they share your ideology.
You're a religious extremist who shames the religion in which you purport to believe to those of different faiths. You are scientifically ignorant and worse, willfully hostile to science. And to top it off, you are generally very rude and crude to your fellow bloggers. Nice job.
May 10, 2008 8:27 AM
"Over the years, we have provided the evidence on this blog. People have taken hours putting it together, and apparently you have ignored it. You think that by repeatedly saying "show me the evidence" you're going to convince any but your fundamentalist friends that there really is no evidence."
You have never, ever put up any evidence that homosexuality is not a mental illness. If there is some, put it in the TTF reference section and reference it. No need to spend hours more on it.
Truth is, to determine whether something is a mental illness, you have to decide what is the normal mental state, a subjective evaluation.
Again, the lunatic gay fringe conceit is that science has proved something it hasn't and then feign indignance at the thought that science hasn't justified their every idea.
You misuse science and then pretend to revere it. Nice job.
"You're failing -- I have never heard from anyone who reads this blog that they share your ideology."
People who read this blog have a predetermined viewpoint that they are motivated to believe in. They didn't stumble upon it in their quest for scientific truth.
"You're a religious extremist who shames the religion in which you purport to believe to those of different faiths."
My religious views are moderate. Yours are extreme.
"You are scientifically ignorant and worse, willfully hostile to science."
Despite your education, you've espoused many opinions here that even a layman would recognize as illogical.
"And to top it off, you are generally very rude and crude to your fellow bloggers. Nice job."
I been treated rudely and crudely, although most here are so far gone, they'd never notice. Truth is you're most offended when I speak most civilly. Many of your commenters have complained that I make "bigotry" seem so fair and rational. Your problem with my approach is not it's crudeness. Indeed, part of the gay game is to try and provoke the other side and then gripe about the reaction. Right?
May 10, 2008 1:14 PM
Anonymous said...
You have never, ever put up any evidence that homosexuality is not a mental illness. If there is some, put it in the TTF reference section and reference it. No need to spend hours more on it.
--
While you’re at it, put in some evidence that the Earth is not flat. You’ve never provided scientific evidence of that either.
May 12, 2008 9:07 AM
Oh, that's been known for thousands of years, emslob.
As soon as man began sailing ships, he noticed that, as it sailed into the horizon, the hull disappeared before the mast.
Of course, it wasn't a peer-reviewed finding because Christians had not yet invented the scientific method.
But it was evidence, nonetheless.
May 12, 2008 1:07 PM
Spare me. Any fool who walks out their front door (sans hillfolk) can clearly see that the Earth is flat.
It's even in the Bible:
Ezekiel 7:2:
"Son of man, this is what the Sovereign LORD says to the land of Israel: The end! The end has come upon the four corners of the land."
And Revelations 7:1:
"After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth to prevent any wind from blowing on the land or on the sea or on any tree."
And Revelations 20:8:
"and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore."
--
I really don't think it's wise of you to challenge God on this. Unless you're suggesting that you know better than God.
May 13, 2008 6:20 AM
Emproph said:
“Spare me. Any fool who walks out their front door (sans hillfolk) can clearly see that the Earth is flat.
It's even in the Bible:”
---
“When the earth was still flat, and the clouds made of fire,
And the mountains stretched up to the sky, sometimes higher…”
Thanks for reminding my of my favorite creation myth Emproph. It’s called “Origin of Love” by Hedwig and the Angry Inch. You can find it here on YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-YO9FpWX57E I hope everyone enjoys it as much as I do.
Peace,
Cynthia
May 13, 2008 9:58 AM
emslob
You're an idiot. When Revelation was written, it was common knowledge that the Earth was round. The language is metaphorical just like when Bob Ryan says the sun rose.
May 13, 2008 10:11 AM
Thanks for pointing that out Cynthia. I remember watching the movie, but I couln't appreciate it at the time.
A poetic crash course on the literal-whole thing...
Hedwig and the Angry Inch - Origin of Love
When the earth was still flat,
And the clouds made of fire,
And mountains stretched up to the sky,
Sometimes higher...
May 13, 2008 10:55 AM
anon-deluxe said...
"emslob
You're an idiot. When Revelation was written…"
So you’re saying that you were there at the time of Revelations, and that reincarnation is true?
You know anon (deluxe or otherwise), it’s really not up to us as to how many lifetimes we have. God’s Word clearly states that:
Hebrews 9:27:
Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment
--
I can’t imagine that your "destining" for man to die more than once, bodes well for your salvation status.
May 13, 2008 11:35 AM