Groups do not have "seats on the "county sex ed committee."
JimK
February 14, 2010 4:58 PM
Anonymous said...
PFOX constantly talks about "thousands" of "ex-gays", but never produces factual evidence of the truth of their statement.
They seem to subscribe to the Big Lie theory of Adolph Hitler, who once said: "The great masses of the people... will more easily fall victims to a great lie than to a small one." Their constant propaganda claiming that they are supportive of "ex-gays" (in other words, heterosexuals) is nothing more than a fabrication to cover up their distaste and hatred of GLBT people.
Intelligent people wonder how many of these thousands of "ex-gays" are supporters or members of the teeny Citizens for Responsible Government (or whatever their current a.k.a. is) or the fraudulent PFOX. Which of the leaders of these groups is an "ex-gay" individual who can speak with any degree of believability for these disreputable and deceitful organizations?
One assumes, though, that if these groups could produce such information, they would then continue to perpetuate the even bigger lie of saying that revealing ex-gay individuals would only subject them to hateful discrimination.
There are very few, if any, cases of heterosexuals being discriminated against because of their sexual orientation, despite PFOX's assertions.
"MCPS should not serve as a support for the unproven advocacy positions of TTF."??
Ludicrous!!
MCPS would do well to investigate the ethics and legitimacy of PFOX before it distributes its hateful and false claims, which are on a par with the claims of "racial superiority" of such groups as the Ku Klux Klan.
PFOX and their subordinate CRC/G supporters are, as usual, blowing in the wind. They are LIARS!
Citizen
February 14, 2010 11:58 PM
strange stories said...
TTF should lose their non-existent "seat" on the "county sex ed committee" for stirring this moronic controversy.
What explains the fact that you were on and, now, Grewell is too?
If it's not the TTF seat, it must just be that there are so people that hold your outlandish view that you have to represent it.
The PFOX fliers assert a doctrine that has been discredited by every mainstream medical and mental health professional association, including the American Medical Association and the American Academy of Pediatrics. While the fliers state that people can change their sexual orientation through ”therapy” and “faith based ministries,” the mainstream groups have determined that people cannot choose their sexual orientation and that such therapies do great damage. Guidance counselors in Montgomery County Public Schools (MCPS) have, as a resource, a publication from the American Psychological Association that debunks the PFOX assertion.
PFOX is not a benign organization. In fact, one of its board members, who PFOX nominated to be a member of an MCPS advisory committee on health education, is Peter Sprigg. Mr. Sprigg recently admitted on MSNBC’s Hardball that he advocates the “criminalization” of “gay behavior.”
Whether MCPS may, consistent with a 2006 court decision, bar the PFOX fliers without eliminating the flyer distribution program altogether may be an open question. But what is not an open question is that PFOX promotes medically discredited therapies that are dangerous to children's health.
David S. Fishback
February 15, 2010 6:32 AM
david, david, david (head shake) said...
"mainstream groups have determined that people cannot choose their sexual orientation"
no, they haven't
"and that such therapies do great damage"
not really
ask Joy
"Guidance counselors in Montgomery County Public Schools (MCPS) have, as a resource, a publication from the American Psychological Association that debunks the PFOX assertion"
really?
can you quote where it debunks it?
"PFOX is not a benign organization. In fact, one of its board members, who PFOX nominated to be a member of an MCPS advisory committee on health education, is Peter Sprigg. Mr. Sprigg recently admitted on MSNBC’s Hardball that he advocates the “criminalization” of “gay behavior.”"
kind of a vague statement, here, David
I think everyone would want to criminalize some gay behavior
"But what is not an open question is that PFOX promotes medically discredited therapies that are dangerous to children's health"
Another Anon who dares not speak his/her own name writes, in response to my statement that "mainstream groups have determined that people cannot choose their sexual orientation," by saying "no, theythey haven't"
Here, for example, is what the American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP)says, in a report available at http://aappolicy.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/pediatrics;113/6/1827, states that “Sexual orientation is not a choice; that is, individuals do not choose to be homosexual or heterosexual," nor is it something "that voluntarily can be changed."
And in response to my statement that reparative "therapies do great damage," he/she writes "not really."
Yes, really. That is why the American Medical Association explicitly "[O]pposes the use of ‘reparative’ or ‘conversion’ therapy that is based upon the assumption that homosexuality per se is a mental disorder or based upon the a priori assumption that the patient should change his/her homosexual orientation." (AMA Policy Number H-160.991 Health Care Needs of the Homosexual Population, available at http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/pub/category/14754.html).
The American Psychological Assn.’s Just the Facts About Sexual Orientation and Youth: A Primer for Principals, Educators, and School Personnel – a publication expressly developed for school personnel and endorsed by 13 other organizations, including the American School Counselors Assn., the National Assoc. of School Psychologists, and the AAP – notes that "the nation's leading professional medical, health, and mental health organizations do not support efforts to change young people's sexual orientation through therapy and have raised serious concerns about the potential harm from such efforts." http://www.apa.org/pi/lgbt/resources/just-the-facts.pdf
And with respect to my statement about Peter Sprigg's statement on Hardball that he would criminalize "gay behavior," you say "kind of a vague statement, here, David. I think everyone would want to criminalize some gay behavior."
No, Peter's statement was not vague. He made it clear that he believed that Lawrence v. Texas was wrongly decided, and he did not seek to make distinctions between what consensual activities between of adults of the same gender he would or would not criminalize. And I am curious, what "gay behavior" would you criminalize that is not also illegal regarding opposite sex activity.
February 15, 2010 8:55 AM
Aunt Bea said...
"PFOX is not a benign organization. In fact, one of its board members, who PFOX nominated to be a member of an MCPS advisory committee on health education, is Peter Sprigg. Mr. Sprigg recently admitted on MSNBC’s Hardball that he advocates the “criminalization” of “gay behavior.”"
kind of a vague statement, here, David
It's not vague at all. Here's the video to refresh everyone's memory (even David's) of Peter Sprigg's actual statement on MSNBC.
At 8:40 into the video, Chris Matthews asks Sprigg "Do you think we should outlaw gay behavior?" Sprigg replies that he thinks the Supreme Court "wrongly decided" Lawrence v. Texas and "there would be a place for criminal sanctions against homosexual behavior." Sprigg changed Matthews' term "gay behavior" into "homosexual behavior" since talking about LGBT people in the most offensive way what he is paid to do.
What exactly is "homosexual behavior" per Sprigg's definition and would straights who engage in it be criminals too if the "behavior" was outlawed as he'd like?
February 15, 2010 9:03 AM
Anonymous said...
David,
PFOX did NOT say, in their flyer, that people can change their sexual orientation through therapy. They said (with my emphasis in CAPS):
"Every year thousands of people with unwanted same-sex attractions MAKE THE PERSONAL DECISION TO LEAVE A GAY IDENTITY through gender affirming programs, including therapy, faith based ministries, and other non-judgmental environments."
People are free to CHOOSE whether or not to engage in homosexual behavior and whether or not to identify themselves as gay.
Simple as DAT!
Can't figure out why you're against it!
Just like....if I'm an alcoholic who is dying for a drink every minute, but I make the decision to leave that lifestyle and not have a drink anymore, and I no longer identify myself as an alcoholic...then what's wrong with that?
Now, if I said I wasn't an alcoholic, and all of the other alcoholics claimed I was and harassed me for saying I wasn't....now that's a problem!
February 15, 2010 11:06 AM
Aunt Bea said...
Homosexuality is not a disease, unlike alcoholism and obsessive Internet trollism.
February 15, 2010 1:55 PM
Anonymous said...
"Anonymous, Anonymous, Anonymous"
Once again you make your usual laughable and unsupportable statement: "Every year thousands of people with unwanted same-sex attractions MAKE THE PERSONAL DECISION TO LEAVE A GAY IDENTITY through gender affirming programs, including therapy, faith based ministries, and other non-judgmental environments."
It's called the Big Lie!
Please cite for us the authority from whom you get this absurd information. What agency or right-wing organizations keeps a record of the "thousands" of people with "unwanted same-sex attractions"? Is it the ASPCA, or the Flat-Earth Society, or even PFOX? Where are the files recording this tremendous surge to heterosexuality kept? They must have a HUGE staff to handle the immense information about "ex-gays" that flows into their offices on a daily basis!
Do they also record the huge numbers of Ex-Heterosexuals who, upon discovering their true nature, go in the opposite direction on a two-way road to gender self-identity?
When did you choose your particular gender identity? Where is that information stored for the use of "ex-gay" so-called "faith-based ministries" or others who live in your non-judgmental (sic.) environment? After all, we are entitled to know why you CHOSE your particular sexual orientation so that we can pass judgment on you too.
Citizen
February 15, 2010 3:56 PM
Level Headed said...
It's a choice. You can do whatever you want in life, but there are consequences when you deviate from your natural God given male or female assigned sex from birth. It's a choice. Take the bait and buy the lie. . .or resist temptation to succumb to homosexuality and win. It's a choice. Choose wisely.
February 15, 2010 10:45 PM
Anonymous said...
Level, I think it would really be a heartwarming testimonial if you told us here about the torture you went through when you had to choose whether you would be interested in boys or girls, and how you made the choice through your faith and knowledge of right and wrong.
Testify for us about the difficulty of that choice and how God spoke to you and made it possible for you to be attracted to the opposite sex. You can inspire others here, and possibly change some people's minds by witnessing here before us sinners.
February 15, 2010 10:55 PM
Anonymous said...
Good for you, Level Headed! You have a level head! To the Anon -- there are a lot of stories about the struggles of gays and ex-gays on the PFOX website under "Our Stories." Or, read about "The Donnie McClurkin Story - From Darkness to Light."
February 16, 2010 8:06 AM
Anonymous said...
Check out the "Our Stories" section of PFOX for stories about ex-gays and gays making decisions. Also, review "The Donnie McClurkin Story - From Darkness to Light."
February 16, 2010 8:36 AM
Robert said...
I remember when PFOX had, on their website, as part of their statement of faith, the concept that openly LGBT people who embrace rather than reject their sexual orientation, can not be saved, i.e. can not receive God's grace as Christians.
Have they rescinded this stance? Nowhere that I've seen.
Believing and asserting that all non-self-loathing lgbt people are going to hell is not benign.
Is it hate speech? Not in America. The SBC, for example, asserts the same thing about non-Baptists.
February 16, 2010 8:58 AM
Anonymous said...
Well, Robert, most Christians would say that those who actively embrace adultery can't be saved until they renounce the adultery. It wouldn't even matter if someone found an "adultery" gene that relentlessly drives them.
We make our choices. We can't make a choice, and then expect the world to fall at our feet.
The Christian faith does offer redemption, so if that's the route that someone wants to go, then they're free to follow that path.
February 16, 2010 11:06 AM
Anonymous said...
Robert, just a suggestion, but you might want to consider that you've allowed sexual desire to be too central to your sense of identity.
February 16, 2010 12:28 PM
Robert said...
One thing that is central to my identity is my name? How about you?
Setting aside your trite pseudo-moralizing, my point is that PFOX is an organization that has a policy of being not-accepting of LGBT people.
They're claims to victimhood fall flat.
February 16, 2010 12:31 PM
Anonymous said...
You are not a very good representative of your Christian faith, "Anonymous".
"The Christian faith does offer redemption, so if that's the route that someone wants to go, then they're free to follow that path."
You will have to confess to the sin of lying and judging others before you can be saved.
And is hateful lying central to your sense of identity? Seems like you have made that choice in your life.
February 16, 2010 11:10 PM
Anonymous said...
I never said I was a Christian representative. And I haven't gone down the road of redemption.
However, I have tremendous admiration and respect for the Christian faith and wouldn't whine and complain, wishing that they'd change their rules so that I can do what I please.
February 17, 2010 8:20 AM
Robert said...
I have no interest in any Christian group changing its rules. I have an interest in their not insisting that I and people like me follow their rules.
February 17, 2010 11:53 AM
Anonymous said...
It's a choice. God gives us free will. However he will always be there if we need a helping hand because he loves us and wants us to do the right things in life.
November 10, 2011 10:00 PM
Anonymous said...
is everything in your life a choice, anon, or is there something special about you're sexual orientation?
November 10, 2011 10:03 PM
PFOX (Parents and Friends of Ex-Gays and Gays) is an organization that sues people to protect the rights of those chimerical people who have decided not to be gay any more -- "ex-gays." The organization consists basically of Regina Griggs, who has a gay son and who wishes with all her heart that people could just change their sexual orientation. There is a board of directors, which includes our county's Peter Sprigg, who believes that homosexual behavior should be against the law, and PFOX has some friends, including a few in our county.
A few years ago, PFOX began exploiting a legal loophole which enabled them to get Montgomery County Public Schools to distribute their anti-gay literature to students. An evangelical organization had sued the school district because they wouldn't pass out the group's flyers. The school district thought it would be be a violation of the Constitution's Establishment clause, forbidding government promotion of religion, and the group said refusing was a violation of the Free Speech section, and the group won in court. Suddenly a school's decision about whether to distribute someone's flyers became a legal issue, and the district came up with a policy that said that they would distribute any flyer that met certain criteria. Besides school announcements, the PTA, and on-campus clubs, the schools would distribute flyers put out by nonprofit organizations if the flyer had a disclaimer on it and was not hate literature. PFOX is a nonprofit, and they saw the opportunity to recruit gay teenagers through the schools.
At first everybody just shrugged and said, well, they have the right to express themselves, this is fair, etcetera. Some schools set up special trash cans on PFOX flyer days, which coincided with report cards, so students could throw their anti-gay materials out immediately. All the same, school staff spent time handling the flyers, classroom time was taken to hand them out. The information on the flyers was in direct contradiction to the health curriculum, it was in direct contradiction to the schools' antidiscrimination policies, but taxpayer-paid staff spent work time, and students spent time that could have been used for learning, on the flyers.
A couple of weeks ago the flyers went out again, and now people in the county are getting fed up with it. Hateful groups like PFOX exist, we know that, the question is why are the schools giving our county's kids their literature?
This week PFOX stepped up its counteroffense. World Net Daily gives PFOX's side of it: A campaign has been launched in Montgomery County, Md., to classify the speech of advocates for people who choose to leave the homosexual lifestyle as "hate speech," which then could be banned under a new law signed last year by President Obama.
"Hate speech is unwelcome in Montgomery County Public Schools," said an e-mail to the offices of Regina Griggs, national director of Parents and Friends of Ex-Gays & Gays, known as PFOX. "I would like to ask that you immediately cease distribution of your flyers at our public schools.
"We intend to pursue every method possible to protest your actions if you choose to continue," the message warned. Christian speech targeted as 'hate': 'Gays' pledge to 'pursue every method' of protesting school flyers This is great. If this had been a real newspaper, the story would have started with "Somebody sent PFOX an email message ..." World Net Daily, though, presents it as if a communique from the Gay People's Party had been released. They never do tell you who the email was from, it could have been anybody. One email equals "a campaign."
This article describes PFOX as "advocates for people who choose to leave the homosexual lifestyle." First of all, can you tell me what a "lifestyle" is? Can you tell me why "gay" is put in quotes? Have you ever heard of a person who chose to "leave the homosexual lifestyle" and did it? Is there some reason that someone like that needs an advocate -- they're straight now, what's the big deal? The ex-gay frame is a cruel hoax to make you think that gay people have chosen their sexual orientation and can choose to change it, with the subtle message between the lines that they should change their sexual orientation. Really, if change is possible, doesn't that mean that straight people can become gay, too? PFOX only advocates change in one direction. The important truth is that some people naturally have feelings for members of their own sex, nobody knows why really, it's just a statistical fact that some proportion of the population will feel that way. If there are "ex-gays," none of them apparently live in the Washington DC area.
PFOX is gearing up for the inevitable. There is pressure to have them classified as a hate group, officially. And while they have the Constitutional freedom to say what they do, if it is classified as hate speech the school district has a reason to refuse to distribute their materials. (And by the way, regardless of what WND says, the nation's new hate crime law has nothing to do with it, that will only apply when violence has been done.)
PFOX is walking a fine line here, their hateful message is disguised in a clever way, they say they are parents and friends of gay people right in their name, for crying out loud! They just want to help unhappy people stop doing unhealthy things, don't ya know? And all those thousands of people who have "left the homosexual lifestyle," who will speak for them? This is fine-tuned passive aggression, they can say that all they want to do is help quote-gay-unquote people but they are no gay person's friend. The ordinary citizen walking around doesn't understand how any of this works, it sounds plausible, what with AIDS and all, that somebody would want to stop being gay. But there is no question about it, PFOX's message is intended to undermine the rights of LGBT people, to turn the love they feel for their partners into a dirty thing, a feeling you wouldn't want to have. For straight people, an important component of the message is that gay people have chosen to be that way.
The school district might be backed into a legal corner, and they might not. If the flyers can be classified as hate speech then the schools don't have to hand them out -- but who does the classifying? Ah, the answer there is easier than you'd think -- some responsible person classifies it. Maybe the school district's legal department issues a decision, maybe the Superintendent looks at the flyers and says it is hate speech, maybe the school board discusses it and classifies the literature as hateful. A responsible person, that's what we're looking for.
The problem is not that PFOX is saying these things, there have always been people saying these things. The problem is that our taxpayer-supported public schools are delivering this message to our county's children. We entrust the lives and minds of our kids to the school from the moment they get on the bus until the moment they get off it again, and we expect them to be safe from physical and psychological danger, we trust the schools to enlighten their minds through education. And the school district is giving them intellectual poison.
I know what the solution is here, but I don't expect anybody in the school system to go for it. At the bottom of every flyer is a disclaimer like this: (These materials are neither sponsored nor endorsed by the Board of Education of Montgomery County, the superintendent, or this school.) I say, take the disclaimer off. The school should only distribute information that it endorses. Let them be responsible for their actions.
Let the school principal, the Board of Education, the Superintendent of Schools, and home-room teachers be responsible for what they give the children. Consider the quotes from principals who have said things like "If I had my druthers, [the flier] would not have gone out." Why is the principal not held responsible for the literature his school is giving to the students entrusted to him? Give the guy his druthers! Take the disclaimer off all the flyers, and let the school district take responsibility for the information it is giving to our students.
Ah, you say, they're afraid of lawsuits. Yes, there is an inevitable lawsuit if they refuse to distribute the PFOX hate literature. The schools have a little problem with bullying, I wonder where the kids picked that up? Okay, PFOX is going to sue, the school district will have to fight back. If there is a legitimate reason that the school district should have to give anti-gay materials to schoolchildren then PFOX will win and the case will only be wasted money. Is it really possible that distributing hateful literature is a legitimate function of a public school? Okay, back if down a step or two, is it really possible that distributing every group's opinion is a legitimate function of a public school? Of course not, the school is there for education, it is patently absurd for them to be giving children a message that is the direct opposite of what they are taught in class.
This is a moment when we need leaders. Somebody at the top needs to identify this as something indecent and wrong and put a stop to it. The school district is hiding behind a legal opinion instead of acting like grown-ups and confronting the issue.
It may motivate MCPS to know that a lot of parents and citizens are really getting upset by this. We hear from them, we see their listserv discussions, people are not happy. It may motivate MCPS to know that this is getting attention at the national level as well, LGBT advocacy groups are paying attention and discussing what actions they should take. We used to have an elite school district, one that was admired around the country, now people are looking at us like we were some backwoods podunk place that wants to make sure gay and lesbian people know they are not welcome.
It is time for somebody at MCPS to take responsibility for these flyers and put a stop to them.
"Time for MCPS to Take Responsibility"
29 Comments -
Bravo!
Thousands of emails have been sent to Dr. Weast and the MCPS BOE. Let´s hope that they listen to the people! Reason will win.
February 14, 2010 1:43 PM
Tell me, what is hate speech?
Give me a specific example from those PFOX flyer?
February 14, 2010 2:07 PM
It is time for somebody at MCPS to take responsibility for these flyers and tell the kooks at TTF that they will continue.
MCPS should not serve as a support for the unproven advocacy positions of TTF.
For this little bit of inflammatory nonsense, TTF Should lose their seat on the county sex ed committee.
February 14, 2010 3:51 PM
Groups do not have "seats on the "county sex ed committee."
JimK
February 14, 2010 4:58 PM
PFOX constantly talks about "thousands" of "ex-gays", but never produces factual evidence of the truth of their statement.
They seem to subscribe to the Big Lie theory of Adolph Hitler, who once said: "The great masses of the people... will more easily fall victims to a great lie than to a small one." Their constant propaganda claiming that they are supportive of "ex-gays" (in other words, heterosexuals) is nothing more than a fabrication to cover up their distaste and hatred of GLBT people.
Intelligent people wonder how many of these thousands of "ex-gays" are supporters or members of the teeny Citizens for Responsible Government (or whatever their current a.k.a. is) or the fraudulent PFOX. Which of the leaders of these groups is an "ex-gay" individual who can speak with any degree of believability for these disreputable and deceitful organizations?
One assumes, though, that if these groups could produce such information, they would then continue to perpetuate the even bigger lie of saying that revealing ex-gay individuals would only subject them to hateful discrimination.
There are very few, if any, cases of heterosexuals being discriminated against because of their sexual orientation, despite PFOX's assertions.
"MCPS should not serve as a support for the unproven advocacy positions of TTF."??
Ludicrous!!
MCPS would do well to investigate the ethics and legitimacy of PFOX before it distributes its hateful and false claims, which are on a par with the claims of "racial superiority" of such groups as the Ku Klux Klan.
PFOX and their subordinate CRC/G supporters are, as usual, blowing in the wind. They are LIARS!
Citizen
February 14, 2010 11:58 PM
TTF should lose their non-existent "seat" on the "county sex ed committee" for stirring this moronic controversy.
What explains the fact that you were on and, now, Grewell is too?
If it's not the TTF seat, it must just be that there are so people that hold your outlandish view that you have to represent it.
February 15, 2010 12:01 AM
The PFOX fliers assert a doctrine that has been discredited by every mainstream medical and mental health professional association, including the American Medical Association and the American Academy of Pediatrics. While the fliers state that people can change their sexual orientation through ”therapy” and “faith based ministries,” the mainstream groups have determined that people cannot choose their sexual orientation and that such therapies do great damage. Guidance counselors in Montgomery County Public Schools (MCPS) have, as a resource, a publication from the American Psychological Association that debunks the PFOX assertion.
PFOX is not a benign organization. In fact, one of its board members, who PFOX nominated to be a member of an MCPS advisory committee on health education, is Peter Sprigg. Mr. Sprigg recently admitted on MSNBC’s Hardball that he advocates the “criminalization” of “gay behavior.”
Whether MCPS may, consistent with a 2006 court decision, bar the PFOX fliers without eliminating the flyer distribution program altogether may be an open question. But what is not an open question is that PFOX promotes medically discredited therapies that are dangerous to children's health.
David S. Fishback
February 15, 2010 6:32 AM
"mainstream groups have determined that people cannot choose their sexual orientation"
no, they haven't
"and that such therapies do great damage"
not really
ask Joy
"Guidance counselors in Montgomery County Public Schools (MCPS) have, as a resource, a publication from the American Psychological Association that debunks the PFOX assertion"
really?
can you quote where it debunks it?
"PFOX is not a benign organization. In fact, one of its board members, who PFOX nominated to be a member of an MCPS advisory committee on health education, is Peter Sprigg. Mr. Sprigg recently admitted on MSNBC’s Hardball that he advocates the “criminalization” of “gay behavior.”"
kind of a vague statement, here, David
I think everyone would want to criminalize some gay behavior
"But what is not an open question is that PFOX promotes medically discredited therapies that are dangerous to children's health"
you're right
it's not an open question
it's false
February 15, 2010 6:54 AM
Another Anon who dares not speak his/her own name writes, in response to my statement that "mainstream groups have determined that people cannot choose their sexual orientation," by saying "no, theythey haven't"
Here, for example, is what the American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP)says, in a report available at http://aappolicy.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/pediatrics;113/6/1827, states that “Sexual orientation is not a choice; that is, individuals do not choose to be homosexual or heterosexual," nor is it something "that voluntarily can be changed."
February 15, 2010 8:36 AM
And in response to my statement that reparative "therapies do great damage," he/she writes "not really."
Yes, really. That is why the American Medical Association explicitly "[O]pposes the use of ‘reparative’ or ‘conversion’ therapy that is based upon the assumption that homosexuality per se is a mental disorder or based upon the a priori assumption that the patient should change his/her homosexual orientation." (AMA Policy Number H-160.991 Health Care Needs of the Homosexual Population, available at http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/pub/category/14754.html).
February 15, 2010 8:42 AM
The American Psychological Assn.’s Just the Facts About Sexual Orientation and Youth: A Primer for Principals, Educators, and School Personnel – a publication expressly developed for school personnel and endorsed by 13 other organizations, including the American School Counselors Assn., the National Assoc. of School Psychologists, and the AAP – notes that "the nation's leading professional medical, health, and mental health organizations do not support efforts to change young people's sexual orientation through therapy and have raised serious concerns about the potential harm from such efforts." http://www.apa.org/pi/lgbt/resources/just-the-facts.pdf
The publication explains the dangers.
February 15, 2010 8:49 AM
And with respect to my statement about Peter Sprigg's statement on Hardball that he would criminalize "gay behavior," you say "kind of a vague statement, here, David.
I think everyone would want to criminalize some gay behavior."
No, Peter's statement was not vague. He made it clear that he believed that Lawrence v. Texas was wrongly decided, and he did not seek to make distinctions between what consensual activities between of adults of the same gender he would or would not criminalize. And I am curious, what "gay behavior" would you criminalize that is not also illegal regarding opposite sex activity.
February 15, 2010 8:55 AM
"PFOX is not a benign organization. In fact, one of its board members, who PFOX nominated to be a member of an MCPS advisory committee on health education, is Peter Sprigg. Mr. Sprigg recently admitted on MSNBC’s Hardball that he advocates the “criminalization” of “gay behavior.”"
kind of a vague statement, here, David
It's not vague at all. Here's the video to refresh everyone's memory (even David's) of Peter Sprigg's actual statement on MSNBC.
At 8:40 into the video, Chris Matthews asks Sprigg "Do you think we should outlaw gay behavior?" Sprigg replies that he thinks the Supreme Court "wrongly decided" Lawrence v. Texas and "there would be a place for criminal sanctions against homosexual behavior." Sprigg changed Matthews' term "gay behavior" into "homosexual behavior" since talking about LGBT people in the most offensive way what he is paid to do.
What exactly is "homosexual behavior" per Sprigg's definition and would straights who engage in it be criminals too if the "behavior" was outlawed as he'd like?
February 15, 2010 9:03 AM
David,
PFOX did NOT say, in their flyer, that people can change their sexual orientation through therapy. They said (with my emphasis in CAPS):
"Every year thousands of people with unwanted same-sex attractions MAKE THE PERSONAL DECISION TO LEAVE A GAY IDENTITY through gender affirming programs, including therapy, faith based ministries, and other non-judgmental environments."
People are free to CHOOSE whether or not to engage in homosexual behavior and whether or not to identify themselves as gay.
Simple as DAT!
Can't figure out why you're against it!
Just like....if I'm an alcoholic who is dying for a drink every minute, but I make the decision to leave that lifestyle and not have a drink anymore, and I no longer identify myself as an alcoholic...then what's wrong with that?
Now, if I said I wasn't an alcoholic, and all of the other alcoholics claimed I was and harassed me for saying I wasn't....now that's a problem!
February 15, 2010 11:06 AM
Homosexuality is not a disease, unlike alcoholism and obsessive Internet trollism.
February 15, 2010 1:55 PM
"Anonymous, Anonymous, Anonymous"
Once again you make your usual laughable and unsupportable statement: "Every year thousands of people with unwanted same-sex attractions MAKE THE PERSONAL DECISION TO LEAVE A GAY IDENTITY through gender affirming programs, including therapy, faith based ministries, and other non-judgmental environments."
It's called the Big Lie!
Please cite for us the authority from whom you get this absurd information. What agency or right-wing organizations keeps a record of the "thousands" of people with "unwanted same-sex attractions"? Is it the ASPCA, or the Flat-Earth Society, or even PFOX? Where are the files recording this tremendous surge to heterosexuality kept? They must have a HUGE staff to handle the immense information about "ex-gays" that flows into their offices on a daily basis!
Do they also record the huge numbers of Ex-Heterosexuals who, upon discovering their true nature, go in the opposite direction on a two-way road to gender self-identity?
When did you choose your particular gender identity? Where is that information stored for the use of "ex-gay" so-called "faith-based ministries" or others who live in your non-judgmental (sic.) environment? After all, we are entitled to know why you CHOSE your particular sexual orientation so that we can pass judgment on you too.
Citizen
February 15, 2010 3:56 PM
It's a choice. You can do whatever you want in life, but there are consequences when you deviate from your natural God given male or female assigned sex from birth. It's a choice.
Take the bait and buy the lie. . .or resist temptation to succumb to homosexuality and win.
It's a choice.
Choose wisely.
February 15, 2010 10:45 PM
Level, I think it would really be a heartwarming testimonial if you told us here about the torture you went through when you had to choose whether you would be interested in boys or girls, and how you made the choice through your faith and knowledge of right and wrong.
Testify for us about the difficulty of that choice and how God spoke to you and made it possible for you to be attracted to the opposite sex. You can inspire others here, and possibly change some people's minds by witnessing here before us sinners.
February 15, 2010 10:55 PM
Good for you, Level Headed! You have a level head! To the Anon -- there are a lot of stories about the struggles of gays and ex-gays on the PFOX website under "Our Stories." Or, read about "The Donnie McClurkin Story - From Darkness to Light."
February 16, 2010 8:06 AM
Check out the "Our Stories" section of PFOX for stories about ex-gays and gays making decisions. Also, review "The Donnie McClurkin Story - From Darkness to Light."
February 16, 2010 8:36 AM
I remember when PFOX had, on their website, as part of their statement of faith, the concept that openly LGBT people who embrace rather than reject their sexual orientation, can not be saved, i.e. can not receive God's grace as Christians.
Have they rescinded this stance? Nowhere that I've seen.
Believing and asserting that all non-self-loathing lgbt people are going to hell is not benign.
Is it hate speech? Not in America. The SBC, for example, asserts the same thing about non-Baptists.
February 16, 2010 8:58 AM
Well, Robert, most Christians would say that those who actively embrace adultery can't be saved until they renounce the adultery. It wouldn't even matter if someone found an "adultery" gene that relentlessly drives them.
We make our choices. We can't make a choice, and then expect the world to fall at our feet.
The Christian faith does offer redemption, so if that's the route that someone wants to go, then they're free to follow that path.
February 16, 2010 11:06 AM
Robert, just a suggestion, but you might want to consider that you've allowed sexual desire to be too central to your sense of identity.
February 16, 2010 12:28 PM
One thing that is central to my identity is my name? How about you?
Setting aside your trite pseudo-moralizing, my point is that PFOX is an organization that has a policy of being not-accepting of LGBT people.
They're claims to victimhood fall flat.
February 16, 2010 12:31 PM
You are not a very good representative of your Christian faith, "Anonymous".
"The Christian faith does offer redemption, so if that's the route that someone wants to go, then they're free to follow that path."
You will have to confess to the sin of lying and judging others before you can be saved.
And is hateful lying central to your sense of identity? Seems like you have made that choice in your life.
February 16, 2010 11:10 PM
I never said I was a Christian representative. And I haven't gone down the road of redemption.
However, I have tremendous admiration and respect for the Christian faith and wouldn't whine and complain, wishing that they'd change their rules so that I can do what I please.
February 17, 2010 8:20 AM
I have no interest in any Christian group changing its rules. I have an interest in their not insisting that I and people like me follow their rules.
February 17, 2010 11:53 AM
It's a choice. God gives us free will. However he will always be there if we need a helping hand because he loves us and wants us to do the right things in life.
November 10, 2011 10:00 PM
is everything in your life a choice, anon, or is there something special about you're sexual orientation?
November 10, 2011 10:03 PM