My heart somehow is on your side, and that of the Bad Methodist, however, my mind keeps telling me that there should be some level or legality attached to this... Hate speech is not just speech, it has consequences sometimes dramatic ones on peoples lives. We can think of many examples: abortion clinics being attack, and people dying because a zealot that has been preached upon about the evil of abortion considers is his/her moral and religious duty to "end" abortion to the best of his/her ability; black people being lynched because someone insists in preaching segregation; the Holocaust was possible in large measure because hate speech about Jews was allowed to grow unchecked, and people grew convinced of the evil nature of Jews; now, we can see how they managed to keep marriage at bay for gays and lesbians just by insisting on that idea that it somehow will affect me and my husband, and 11 states voted it down, some of those states went so far as to ban partnerships and stuff that will even affect heterosexuals -because now the big thing is that EVERYONE (this only means every heterosexual one) should get married, so they are inflicting their morals on all of us now-. All it took was a bunch of preachers saying what the recall group have posted in their website: the Bible says that's evil, and a sin. And Americans, the free speech leaders of the world, went on and ban mutually consenting adults from entering into marriage as they see fit, and consequently, children from getting insurance from one of the parents, and stuff like that. And the trend is growing: now they are trying to ban homosexuals from adopting, and this, and that, and the other. I do believe speech has consequences...
January 30, 2005 9:49 AM
Anonymous said...
I disagree with the assertion that people like Fred Phelps create more gay rights activists. If anything, it helps the more moderately homophobic feel normal. "That's what bigotry looks like," they say to themselves, "I'm not a bigot. I just support traditional marriage."
Radicals never damage their own side. They help to make the slightly less radical look a lot less radical.
Interesting comment, Anon, but I think I disagree. One thing about gay-hating is that there isn't much of a rationale behind it. You can't say they're inferior intellectually, or really point to any explanation for what's wrong with being gay, except that it's ... just wrong. And for religious people, right and wrong come from God.
But when you hear a nut like Phelps talking about how God hates all these people, you have to know he can't be right -- really, it's hard to imagine a sane person believing that stuff. So you question whether "God hates fags," and, well, if you thought about it, you'd end up realizing that Jesus believed in forgiving, and in not judging others.
At least, that's the way it looks to me, I don't know if real people follow that path. But I will retain some hope for the intelligence and honesty of my fellow human beings.
January 30, 2005 8:17 PM
Anonymous said...
I agree... mostly.
But the thought consistent with most homophobes is not that God hates fags, it's that God hates faggotry. In other words: "Hate the sin, not the sinner".
Yes they say that, and if there were a gay person who totally denied his or her own true nature and went along with these people's program, they would indeed love that person. Is that a kind thing to do to someone, does that show you love them, when you demand that they renounce their own feelings? You take a gay guy with no interest in women, and only accept him if he forces himself to marry one?
When you think that everything someone does is evil, not just irritating or unlikeable but evil, you have crossed the line to hatred.
JimK
February 03, 2005 9:22 AM
Anonymous said...
You just love that word 'evil' don't you Jimbo. Oohh, they're 'evil', they're 'bigots', they're 'ignorant', they think gay people are 'evil' -- where do you get this stuff?
You love painting with broad strokes, don't you? That's all you get reading this blog -- blah, blah, blah ... attacks and more attacks directed at people who don't agree with you. Why don't you tell us how you REALLY feel?
MB
February 03, 2005 12:52 PM
Anonymous said...
What's up MB did he hit a nerve?
December 06, 2005 12:18 PM
I had forgotten, when I wrote the earlier post about the bigoted Swedish preacher who hates gay people, that this bigoted American preacher hates gay people and Swedes. Fred Phelps, the Baptist minister who runs the web site GodHatesFags.com, felt very, very good about the recent Asian tsunami, because it killed thousands of Swedes who were vacationing there.
This so pleased him that he started a new web site, GodHatesSwedes.com. Here's a sample from his web page:
Fags have a 3 point agenda: 1) decriminalize sodomy, 2) add fags to the protected classes as victims like blacks, and 3) criminalize Gospel preaching against fags. Sweden's doom is now irreversible!
With the imprisonment of Ake Green, Swedes have allowed the filthy sodomite agenda to be completely fulfilled. See our monument to Pastor Green here.
With this act, Sweden has drawn to it the wrath and mocking of God!
"I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh;
When your fear cometh as desolation, and your destruction cometh as a whirlwind; when distress and anguish cometh upon you" (Proverbs 1:26-27)
"He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision" (Psalm 2:4).
THANK GOD FOR ALL DEAD SWEDES!!!
I came across this site by way of a blogger who calls himself The Bad Methodist. I enjoyed his commentary on the Swedish preacher dilemma:
Personally, I come down on the side of free speech. Most intelligent people, even those who think homosexuality is a sin, can make the distinction between two consenting adults of the same gender in a mutally loving relationship and pedophiles and people who would "rape animals." Speeches like this tend to show the speakers for the idiots they are and do a lot more harm to the anti-gay agenda than rational conservatives who don't use ludicrous non-sequitors to state their case. Take a look at Fred Phelps, who creates gay rights supporters every time he opens his mouth. No offense to Sweden, but I'll take free speech because I think it does the job better than any statute can.
Right, let the bigots say whatever they like. People can tell the difference.
"God Hates Swedes???"
7 Comments -
My heart somehow is on your side, and that of the Bad Methodist, however, my mind keeps telling me that there should be some level or legality attached to this...
Hate speech is not just speech, it has consequences sometimes dramatic ones on peoples lives.
We can think of many examples: abortion clinics being attack, and people dying because a zealot that has been preached upon about the evil of abortion considers is his/her moral and religious duty to "end" abortion to the best of his/her ability; black people being lynched because someone insists in preaching segregation; the Holocaust was possible in large measure because hate speech about Jews was allowed to grow unchecked, and people grew convinced of the evil nature of Jews; now, we can see how they managed to keep marriage at bay for gays and lesbians just by insisting on that idea that it somehow will affect me and my husband, and 11 states voted it down, some of those states went so far as to ban partnerships and stuff that will even affect heterosexuals -because now the big thing is that EVERYONE (this only means every heterosexual one) should get married, so they are inflicting their morals on all of us now-.
All it took was a bunch of preachers saying what the recall group have posted in their website: the Bible says that's evil, and a sin. And Americans, the free speech leaders of the world, went on and ban mutually consenting adults from entering into marriage as they see fit, and consequently, children from getting insurance from one of the parents, and stuff like that. And the trend is growing: now they are trying to ban homosexuals from adopting, and this, and that, and the other.
I do believe speech has consequences...
January 30, 2005 9:49 AM
I disagree with the assertion that people like Fred Phelps create more gay rights activists. If anything, it helps the more moderately homophobic feel normal. "That's what bigotry looks like," they say to themselves, "I'm not a bigot. I just support traditional marriage."
Radicals never damage their own side. They help to make the slightly less radical look a lot less radical.
January 30, 2005 5:20 PM
Interesting comment, Anon, but I think I disagree. One thing about gay-hating is that there isn't much of a rationale behind it. You can't say they're inferior intellectually, or really point to any explanation for what's wrong with being gay, except that it's ... just wrong. And for religious people, right and wrong come from God.
But when you hear a nut like Phelps talking about how God hates all these people, you have to know he can't be right -- really, it's hard to imagine a sane person believing that stuff. So you question whether "God hates fags," and, well, if you thought about it, you'd end up realizing that Jesus believed in forgiving, and in not judging others.
At least, that's the way it looks to me, I don't know if real people follow that path. But I will retain some hope for the intelligence and honesty of my fellow human beings.
January 30, 2005 8:17 PM
I agree... mostly.
But the thought consistent with most homophobes is not that God hates fags, it's that God hates faggotry. In other words: "Hate the sin, not the sinner".
February 02, 2005 3:59 PM
Yes they say that, and if there were a gay person who totally denied his or her own true nature and went along with these people's program, they would indeed love that person. Is that a kind thing to do to someone, does that show you love them, when you demand that they renounce their own feelings? You take a gay guy with no interest in women, and only accept him if he forces himself to marry one?
When you think that everything someone does is evil, not just irritating or unlikeable but evil, you have crossed the line to hatred.
JimK
February 03, 2005 9:22 AM
You just love that word 'evil' don't you Jimbo. Oohh, they're 'evil', they're 'bigots', they're 'ignorant', they think gay people are 'evil' -- where do you get this stuff?
You love painting with broad strokes, don't you? That's all you get reading this blog -- blah, blah, blah ... attacks and more attacks directed at people who don't agree with you. Why don't you tell us how you REALLY feel?
MB
February 03, 2005 12:52 PM
What's up MB did he hit a nerve?
December 06, 2005 12:18 PM