Some amazing ideas here. Perhaps the so-called "Christians" could also change their "life-style" if they submitted to "reparative therapy". Wow...there really is hope in this world!!
November 04, 2011 4:53 PM
Anonymous said...
Throckmorton's years of work in the field have led him to conclude:
"gay and bisexual people who change their behavior infrequently lose their same-sex attractions, no matter how earnestly they pray. In my work as well as other studies, heterosexually married gay and lesbian people do not demonstrate change in attractions on average, even as they demonstrate devotion to their marriages. My critics can keep on criticizing but they have not been able to address the evidence which does not cut in their favor."
Even a Christian like Warren Throckmorton, who used to argue that gays can change their orientation and spent decades working with trying to help them do so, has evolved.
Imagine, maybe "Anonymous" will join him someday.
November 05, 2011 4:24 PM
Hate group honors deadbeat Dad said...
Joe Walsh has earned a 100% “True Blue” rating from the Family Research Council, the evangelical lobbying organization and hideous advocate of assorted bigotries. Not Joe Walsh the Eagle, but Joe Walsh the “Tea Party” freshman congressman who, not coincidentally, owes more than $100,000 in back child support that he refuses to pay.
FRC lauds Walsh for his “unwavering support of the family,” by which they don’t mean his family, because obviously his support for them has been known to waver. But supporting one’s actual children is less important, to Tony Perkins and his organization, than Walsh’s steadfast belief that the government’s sole responsibility is to ensure that life is as difficult and miserable as possible for women and gay people.
“We thank Cong. Walsh who has voted consistently to defend faith, family and freedom,” said FRCA President Tony Perkins. “Cong. Walsh and other ‘True Blue Members’ have voted to repeal Obamacare, de-fund Planned Parenthood, end government funding for abortion within the health care law, uphold the Defense of Marriage Act, and continue support for school choice. I applaud their commitment to uphold the institutions of marriage and family.”
Congratulations to Joe Walsh and the Family Research Council, fine representatives of everything small and selfish and hateful in the dark recesses of the American psyche.
It takes a wise and humble soul to own up to one's own previous mistakes, or own up to one's own mistaken points of view.
I'd admire Dr. Throckmorton a great deal for his changing of views. He acknowledges that gay and bisexexul people can change sexual behavior, but by the evidence it appears to be next to impossible -- if ever possible at all -- to change one's sexual orientation. Given Dr. Throckmorton's faith-based belief system, his change of view on sexual orientation probably is probably about the best we could've expected of him.
November 06, 2011 12:05 PM
Anonymous said...
Appreciating your sentiment, what do you think it would take for Throckmorton to shift even further to a position that recognizes that homophobia is un-Christian?
Or do we just have to accept that there are intelligent people who are unable to question authority?
I've always had the greatest of respect for Dr Throckmorton, even when he held views more in line with NARTH's than the views he holds today.
He was always honest, going where the evidence took him, no matter how much that might have challenged his comfortable belief system.
Tell me, if we were confronted with a mass of Good Science that demonstrated conclusively that Sex Ed led to worse outcomes for children than lack of it - would we be able to renounce our cherished beliefs as being contrary to the evidence?
Or would we retreat into denial?
That's a hypothetical of course, what evidence we have is clearly to the contrary - but so was the evidence Dr Throckmorton was aware of ten years ago. If we had improved data that contradicted our views, would we change our views to match the evidence too? Abandon our whole comfortable world view?
I too reserve the right to change my opinions to match the evidence. I've already done so in the past, and will no doubt do so in the future. I used to believe in a distinct gender binary for example, but the evidence against that model being useful hit me over the head hard enough so I could no longer ignore it.
November 06, 2011 4:45 PM
You might remember Warren Throckmorton. He is a Psychology professor at a small Christian college in Pennsylvania who wrote a report that was critical of the original 2004 MCPS sex-ed curriculum revisions. Most importantly, he and his co-author David Blakeslee criticized the curriculum's "essentialist" position on sexual orientation. That position holds that a person's sexual orientation is a fixed feature of their personality, it is essential to who they are. Throckmorton and Blakeslee argued that sexual orientation can be fluid, that it might be socially constructed, and that "change is possible but not accepted by essentialists."
Over the years Throckmorton's position has shifted, and today he seems to have come around to the essentialist view. Where he used to hold that sexual orientation can change, he now advocates what he calls "congruency," where a person who finds his or her sexual orientation in conflict with their other beliefs -- that is, if their religion forbids it -- should adapt their behavior to fit their beliefs. Personally I think this position, that gay people who subscribe to a homophobic religious group should pretend to be straight, is slightly less cruel than giving gay people false hope that they can become heterosexual. Throckmorton believes that it may be possible for sexual orientation to change for a very small proportion of people, but in general the chances are so slim that a different approach should be advocated.
In the post previous to this one I talked about "Porno Pete" Peter LaBarbera, who gets his nickname from his habit of attending and photographing the most outrageous people at gay leather events. He leads a hate group and has been fighting homosexuality for many years. And now he has decided that Warren Throckmorton is not a real Christian, since he doesn't believe that change is possible for most people. "But in the last few years, he's basically become a pro-gay advocate who discredits the idea of change for most homosexuals," LaBarbera explains. "He grants the idea that they can change, but he says change is very rare.
"So effectively, Warren Throckmorton has become a very useful advocate for the homosexual side because he can claim to be an evangelical and yet he's undermining scriptural truth."
LaBarbera goes on to say that the professor of psychology is associated with a respected Christian school that advertises itself as "authentically Christian."
"We're asking [him] to either apologize for his pro-homosexual advocacy, or to basically admit that he doesn't belong at a college which calls itself a biblically Christian college," states the pro-family leader, concluding that one cannot have it both ways.
According to LaBarbara, Christians know people can leave the lifestyle, and that through Christ, many thousands have. So he says Throckmorton's message -- that change is near impossible -- is contrary to Christian thinking. Educator's pro-'gay' advocacy challenged I love it when they fight among themselves, don't you?
The comments there are good, btw, LaBarbera joins in.
Throckmorton responded on his blog. Here we have a test of orthodoxy – something that must be believed in order to be considered a Christian. In my tradition, faith in the redeeming mission of Christ is the test of faith. However, in the new orthodoxy of some in the Christian right, one must believe certain things about gays in order to be consider a Christian.
On the points raised by the ONN article, I observe that LaBarbera conflates behavior and inclination. He says I don’t think people can “leave the lifestyle” because I think categorical change of sexual attractions is rare and complex. While his description of behavior change is crude and stereotypical, I disagree with his assessment of me. I do believe that people change their behavior. They do so for a variety of reasons but in the context of this controversy, some do in order to seek conformity to their religious beliefs. That this happens is not in doubt by any researcher, pro-gay or not, that I know. The APA in their 2009 Task Force report acknowledged this and even noted that finding congruence can lead to certain positive outcomes.
However, gay and bisexual people who change their behavior infrequently lose their same-sex attractions, no matter how earnestly they pray. In my work as well as other studies, heterosexually married gay and lesbian people do not demonstrate change in attractions on average, even as they demonstrate devotion to their marriages. My critics can keep on criticizing but they have not been able to address the evidence which does not cut in their favor. A new test of orthodoxy Throckmorton produced a movie about "ex-gays" in 2004, called "I Do Exist." The movie is no longer on the market, he says, "because I have changed my views significantly since it was made." The movie featured people telling the camera that they had stopped being gay, the phrase "I Do Exist" is a common one among proselytizers and means that "ex-gays" exist. It was a bold statement in 2004 and Throckmorton now retracts it.
He continues. If I need to apologize for something, it is that I misled evangelicals for several years on the matter of sexual orientation. I did not intend to do so. When I made the documentary I Do Exist, I really believed the stories told. I know the people making the video did as well. I believed my clients; I believed people who told me they changed completely. In hindsight, I acknowledge that my work was complicated by the culture war. I now think the culture war is a significant stumbling block for the church.
From that time, there are a handful of people who continue to say they have changed in a comprehensive way. Many however, have acknowledged that their attractions have shifted within a range but have not really changed from one category to another. My view is that these stories are all interesting and that I desire to take people where they are and just work out a way that helps them live with integrity.
Who knows, maybe I will shift my views in different ways in the future. However, I hope it will be in response to evidence, not in order to fit into a man made definition of orthodoxy. In the mean time, I invite critics to simply deal with the evidence. Sexual orientation is a subtle trait and its development is not well understood. Groups like PFOX like to say that "there is no gay gene," as if that meant you can change your sexual orientation, but anyone who looks at the evidence will see that is not the case. You don't become gay by being "recruited into the lifestyle," and you don't stop being gay by praying it away. It is an innate, persistent characteristic of the person.
Throckmorton's belief that gay people should just "not act gay" is too liberal for the hard-core haters like LaBarbera. But many devout Christians have thought about the matter and realized that a loving God has created a diversity of people, not so they can be judged but so they can be loved.
"Throckmorton Attacked by Porno Pete"
6 Comments -
Some amazing ideas here. Perhaps the so-called "Christians" could also change their "life-style" if they submitted to "reparative therapy". Wow...there really is hope in this world!!
November 04, 2011 4:53 PM
Throckmorton's years of work in the field have led him to conclude:
"gay and bisexual people who change their behavior infrequently lose their same-sex attractions, no matter how earnestly they pray. In my work as well as other studies, heterosexually married gay and lesbian people do not demonstrate change in attractions on average, even as they demonstrate devotion to their marriages. My critics can keep on criticizing but they have not been able to address the evidence which does not cut in their favor."
Even a Christian like Warren Throckmorton, who used to argue that gays can change their orientation and spent decades working with trying to help them do so, has evolved.
Imagine, maybe "Anonymous" will join him someday.
November 05, 2011 4:24 PM
Joe Walsh has earned a 100% “True Blue” rating from the Family Research Council, the evangelical lobbying organization and hideous advocate of assorted bigotries. Not Joe Walsh the Eagle, but Joe Walsh the “Tea Party” freshman congressman who, not coincidentally, owes more than $100,000 in back child support that he refuses to pay.
FRC lauds Walsh for his “unwavering support of the family,” by which they don’t mean his family, because obviously his support for them has been known to waver. But supporting one’s actual children is less important, to Tony Perkins and his organization, than Walsh’s steadfast belief that the government’s sole responsibility is to ensure that life is as difficult and miserable as possible for women and gay people.
“We thank Cong. Walsh who has voted consistently to defend faith, family and freedom,” said FRCA President Tony Perkins. “Cong. Walsh and other ‘True Blue Members’ have voted to repeal Obamacare, de-fund Planned Parenthood, end government funding for abortion within the health care law, uphold the Defense of Marriage Act, and continue support for school choice. I applaud their commitment to uphold the institutions of marriage and family.”
Congratulations to Joe Walsh and the Family Research Council, fine representatives of everything small and selfish and hateful in the dark recesses of the American psyche.
November 06, 2011 11:23 AM
It takes a wise and humble soul to own up to one's own previous mistakes, or own up to one's own mistaken points of view.
I'd admire Dr. Throckmorton a great deal for his changing of views. He acknowledges that gay and bisexexul people can change sexual behavior, but by the evidence it appears to be next to impossible -- if ever possible at all -- to change one's sexual orientation. Given Dr. Throckmorton's faith-based belief system, his change of view on sexual orientation probably is probably about the best we could've expected of him.
November 06, 2011 12:05 PM
Appreciating your sentiment, what do you think it would take for Throckmorton to shift even further to a position that recognizes that homophobia is un-Christian?
Or do we just have to accept that there are intelligent people who are unable to question authority?
November 06, 2011 12:28 PM
I've always had the greatest of respect for Dr Throckmorton, even when he held views more in line with NARTH's than the views he holds today.
He was always honest, going where the evidence took him, no matter how much that might have challenged his comfortable belief system.
Tell me, if we were confronted with a mass of Good Science that demonstrated conclusively that Sex Ed led to worse outcomes for children than lack of it - would we be able to renounce our cherished beliefs as being contrary to the evidence?
Or would we retreat into denial?
That's a hypothetical of course, what evidence we have is clearly to the contrary - but so was the evidence Dr Throckmorton was aware of ten years ago. If we had improved data that contradicted our views, would we change our views to match the evidence too? Abandon our whole comfortable world view?
I too reserve the right to change my opinions to match the evidence. I've already done so in the past, and will no doubt do so in the future. I used to believe in a distinct gender binary for example, but the evidence against that model being useful hit me over the head hard enough so I could no longer ignore it.
November 06, 2011 4:45 PM