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Post a Comment On: Steve Sailer: iSteve

"Mexican-Americans vs. Mexican tackiness"

26 Comments -

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Anonymous steve wood said...

Mexican immigrants and their neighborhoods are overwhelmingly working class. Only in Hollywood imagination are working-class neighborhoods romantic and charming. In reality, they are almost always tacky. This is every bit as true of the Italian ghettos in Brooklyn as it is of the barrios of LA.

Speaking of Italians, how well have they done as entrepreneurs? Some surely have done well, but collectively they do not compare to Jews or, more recently, East Asians in terms of entrepreneurial success.

I'm not disagreeing with anything Steve says, just pointing out that it's not a new phenomenon. In fact, sharp entrepreneurial skills may be more the exception than the rule among immigrant groups to the USA now and in the past.

5/29/08, 1:20 PM

Anonymous jody said...

again I am struck by the huge contradiction of calling an integrated, third generation person a "latino".

integration by it's very nature totally and completely destroys anything that was "latino" about a mestizo from south of the border. that's what integration means. there is nothing "latin" about middle class americans. they speak english. they watch football. they eat hamburgers. they are not "hispanic" in any way. their culture is euro american culture now.

black americans are not "anglos". how are mestizo americans "latinos"?

just another way in which the new, fake "hispanic" identity messes up everything.

5/29/08, 1:32 PM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

I live in Chicago and something very bizarre is happening in and around the Mexican-American heart of the city, Pilsen.

Pilsen's eastern area (around Halsted street) is becoming really trendy. Art galleries popping up everywhere. Apparently, upper income Hispanics are moving to this area along with the usual hipsters

Meanwhile, around 26th street and Kedzie, the streets are bustling and all the signs are in Spanish. It's all low end stuff and it feels kind of disjointed.

I think the city should declare eminent domain on some warehouse near this area, tear it down and build a plaza like they have in Mexico. This is more aesthetically appealing and authentic, I think everyone wins.

I'm getting the impression there is a very different dynamic in LA than in Chicago with this community.

5/29/08, 2:04 PM

Anonymous c.o. jones said...

Seems to me hizzoner's comments are a good example of "I can tell you my wife is ugly, but YOU can't tell me wife is ugly."

5/29/08, 2:14 PM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

Well, "Latino" is a term for the brownish not-quite-white looking people who come from historically Spanish speaking countries. They are mixed blood Indians racially, but whites have cognitive trouble seeing/understanding that for some strange reason. Lots of intellectual muck preventing clear understanding of what is really happening, which is pretty amazing since Mexico is right next door.

Mexicans tend to be very kind of collectivist thinking. California Mexicans in my experience lean heavily towards trade union type stuff, quasi-socialistic economic forms. Not so entrepreneurial, and I bet with a good eye you could spot race differences in that (my guess, the more entrepreneurial are more Euro/Arab looking).

Italians actually are very entrepreneurial, historically. Thomas Sowell's book has some good numbers on that subject. Italian-Americans also tend to favor "practical" occupations instead of more esoteric intellectual pursuits.

5/29/08, 2:35 PM

Anonymous Roger Chaillet said...

Jody is struck by the huge contradiction?

How so?

I live in Dallas, and third generation Mexicans are not integrated.

I did volunteer work at the highly regarded Scottish Rite Hospital here in town years ago. There were exactly zero brown volunteers and only a handful of blacks, as in five or six blacks.

Zero.

So, what are saying, and what are you trying to say?

As for middle class folks from down under, forget it. Absent their Mickey Mouse jobs with Fortune 500 companies most would still be in the barrio.

5/29/08, 2:38 PM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

Good post, Steve.

Speaking of Mexican-Americans, you might find this WSJ op/ed by James Kirchick of interest, South Africa's Immigration Shame. This excerpt should give you a softball to swing at:

Two years ago, an economist in Johannesburg told me that Zimbabwe was "South Africa's Mexico," and that the massive number of immigrants flooding into his country should be viewed as a positive economic benefit. This comparison is specious.

Zimbabweans fleeing to South Africa do not intend to make a future there, as Mexican immigrants crossing the Rio Grande hope to do in the U.S. They come to South Africa because they cannot survive in Zimbabwe, a country where the life expectancy is in the mid-30s. If the government doesn't kill you, AIDS or starvation will.

Furthermore, the U.S. would not allow Mexico to degenerate into the massive political and economic hellhole that Zimbabwe has become. At the very least, we would impose sanctions. But more likely, Washington would support antigovernment contras or initiate regime change, as it did in Central America during the Cold War.


- Fred

5/29/08, 3:48 PM

Anonymous jody said...

ah, the anecdote game.

in las vegas, i had a mestizo girlfriend for 3 years. she was a native english speaker from birth and did not understand a word of spanish. she went to high school in california and played tennis. xena princess warrior was her favorite show. she loved country and new wave 80s music. i met her friends.

they were all about the same, except not all of them were mestizos. some were japanese or filipino. they get correctly identified as asian, while my girlfriend is forever miscategorized as "hispanic" or "latino" when there is nothing "latino" or "hispanic" about her. her dad was an american indian from mexico, but i guess correctly identifying her as an american indian or as just mixed race is asking too much.

i've noticed a pretty big difference on people's take on mexicans depending on whether they are more used to dealing with california or texas.

5/29/08, 4:02 PM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Speaking of Italians, how well have they done as entrepreneurs? Some surely have done well, but collectively they do not compare to Jews or, more recently, East Asians in terms of entrepreneurial success."

Italians tend to go into construction related industries and other things that aren't as visible to the general public as retail.

5/29/08, 4:48 PM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

Italians actually are very entrepreneurial, historically. Thomas Sowell's book has some good numbers on that subject. Italian-Americans also tend to favor "practical" occupations instead of more esoteric intellectual pursuits.

That sounds right. The Italian-American construction company is practically a cliche. Also think of body and tire shops (inspiring a scene in the movie "Cars"), plumbing (inspiring Vincent Gardenia's character in "Moonstruck"), electrical, and hauling (which Italians at one time dominated in New York). Also, of course, restauranteuring. (In the mid-20th century, most of the businesses in San Francisco's Fisherman's Wharf, from boats to fish stalls to seafood restaurants, were Italian.) I expect Italians and Italian-Americans would be found to be highly entrepreneurial.

5/29/08, 6:39 PM

Anonymous ben tillman said...

they can get managerial jobs bossing around Spanish-speaking Mexican immigrants while reporting to English-speaking corporate bosses in Atlanta (or wherever).

I thought all chain restaurants originate, and have their headquarters, in Dallas.

5/29/08, 7:17 PM

Blogger Steve Sailer said...

Yes, while writing that, I weighed "Atlanta" vs. "Dallas" for several moments before choosing "Atlanta."

5/29/08, 7:37 PM

Anonymous Udolpho said...

I live in a Mexican (not Hispanic or Latino) area of Dallas and it is wall to wall tacky. Bridal stores, taco stands, Super Mercados, and retread tire shops. (The typical Mexican day must consist of getting married to a 16 year old, celebrating at Cesar's Tacos, and heading over to Super Mercado to buy diapers for the newborn but getting a flat halfway there.)

There's an interesting tension as the neighborhood teeters between barrio and full blown gentrification.

5/29/08, 8:51 PM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

great example: chipotle mexican grill.

5/29/08, 9:16 PM

Anonymous steve wood said...

The Italian-American construction company is practically a cliche. Also think of body and tire shops (inspiring a scene in the movie "Cars"), plumbing (inspiring Vincent Gardenia's character in "Moonstruck"), electrical, and hauling (which Italians at one time dominated in New York). Also, of course, restauranteuring.

Restaurants, yes, definitely. As for construction and skilled trades, that's a stereotype I missed (not saying it isn't accurate), since I think of them as being more Irish than Italian.

5/29/08, 9:46 PM

Anonymous beowulf said...

As for middle class folks from down under, forget it. Absent their Mickey Mouse jobs with Fortune 500 companies most would still be in the barrio.

They have barrios in Australia? Crikey!

Seriously though, only a minority of people, white or black, are cut out to be entrepreneurs. For most people, if they could get a cake job (whether through family connections or affirmative action) with a government, university or corporate bureaucracy, they'd jump on it with both feet.

Many working class whites join the military because they want a postal or civil service job and they figure the government's veteran hiring preference is the only way they'll land a job otherwise slated for an affirmative action hire.

I was just driving in Atlanta last week and noticed the giant Arby's sign on an office high-rise. Strong work going with Atlanta over Dallas. :o)

5/30/08, 1:13 AM

Anonymous simon newman said...

Anecdotally, here in London I had my hardwood floor laid very nicely by a West Indian (black Caribbean) owned firm, who seemed to compete very effectively with white firms in the same business. I have noticed however that West Indian 'minicab' taxi firms are going under or being taken over by Pakistani rivals. Pakistanis in London increasingly monopolise the minicab call-for-taxi business, which are often linked to crime and give them a lot of 'street' control. I suspect this is something to do with ethnic kin networks and all that Sailer stuff. :)

5/30/08, 4:05 AM

Anonymous David said...

The last 3 paragraphs of this are the most realistic, head-in-the-real-world-of-2008, accurate paragraphs I've ever read. From "Atlanta" to "3-ring binders" I got the eerie sensation of, not reading words on a screen, but of seeing real things directly (the same things I see every day).

Your more academic, cloistered readers should pay the closest possible attention to you - you are pitch perfect even at the level of simple observation.

Bravo.

5/30/08, 5:32 AM

Anonymous David said...

ben

You might be surprised how much junk originates in the southeast. Ruby Tuesday restaurants are headquarered in Maryville, Tennessee. HGTV, in Knoxville. Etc.

The three-ring binder type is overwhelmingly prevalent in Atlanta, the southeast's answer to New York. (Not a great answer, but an answer. Would recommend Wolfe's A Man in Full, but it's 15 years out of date.)

5/30/08, 5:45 AM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

I have a theory that every Mexican meal ordered in the United States is conveyed via an elaborate network of underground sub-freezing tunnels to the local El Azteca, whence it is placed in a 500 degree oven and delivered to your table. (Mexican food is best served HOT! Please allow time for adequate preparation.)

The secret factory where your #3 Lunch Special is prepared and plated is either in Atlanta or Dallas.

Senor Doug.

5/30/08, 11:18 AM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

Three-ring binders?

Did you get this from Snow Crash, Steve?

5/30/08, 12:18 PM

Blogger Steve Sailer said...

Yes.

5/30/08, 12:36 PM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

Sailer may have gotten the "three ring binders" from Snow Crash (great book), but they are ubiquitous, and not just in fast food or retail companies. I did a temp gig at a Big Four accounting firm once, and they had three ring binders for every different client. Regular employees had literally a dozen or more of these binders on their desks. Every time the division signed a new client, there was a new binder.

- Fred

5/30/08, 1:50 PM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

Seems to me that there's a silver lining here: at least some Hispanics are assimilating to the American aesthetic such that they want to change their tacky neighbourhoods. Isn't this sort of good news?

5/30/08, 4:07 PM

Anonymous alejandro and proud to be mexican said...

I think that those people who say
that mexican are tacky and their parents come from mexico are bitches because youare discriminating your own race and whare you came from.

11/19/08, 4:37 PM

Anonymous alejandro and proud to be mexican said...

I think that those people who say
that mexican are tacky and their parents come from mexico are bitches because youare discriminating your own race and whare you came from.

11/19/08, 4:37 PM

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