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Post a Comment On: Steve Sailer: iSteve

"Red Pill: Indian generic drug maker Ranbaxy fined $500,000,000"

88 Comments -

1 – 88 of 88
Anonymous Black Death said...

Steve, thanks for posting this. The FDA comes off worse than the IRS. I'll be sure to check now where my family's generic drugs are made. Anything from Ranbaxy goes back.

5/25/13, 5:52 PM

Blogger gubbler, champion of all things checheny(except criminality) said...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhjzjApqwjA

I dunno. Their advertising seems pretty good to me.

5/25/13, 6:01 PM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

After that horrible murder in London, I feel much safer now that the UK government has arrested no less than eleven extremely dangerous people.

They are remanded in custody and denied bail.

Yes, they were . . . commenting!

5/25/13, 6:12 PM

Blogger sunbeam said...

I don't understand India at all. I really don't.

I knew some really intelligent Indians in grad school.

I have read that some elements of the high castes in India have intelligence equal to Jews.

But on the whole... they sure do a good job of not seeming too smart.

Or rather of not doing a good job at a lot of things.

I just don't get this culture. I read things, meet people, talk to them. But I don't understand why they want to be the way they are.

I want no part of it. Plus I don't really like Indian food. That is way down my list of cuisines.

And as regards what you wrote "In China, some executives would have been shot a long time ago. But India is all post-modern and not into that kind of out of date harshness."

I'd hate to think of how bad China would be if they weren't shooting people.

5/25/13, 6:16 PM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

The writer of this article, Katherine Eban, wrote a terrific book back in 2005 called "Dangerous Doses: How Counterfeiters Are Contaminating America's Drug Supply".

It told the story of an investigation team in South Florida going after criminal gangs who were selling stolen, expired, adulterated, and counterfeit prescription drugs to wholesalers who resold them to hospitals and even major U.S. retail chains.

It's actually a terrific read, too. Like a cop show, but real.

And, given that much of it takes place in the greater Miami area, if you read between the lines there's plenty of material that's relevant to many of the issues discussed on your blog.

5/25/13, 6:30 PM

Anonymous Glossy said...

If the NY Post decided to report this story (let's say Murdoch went through Steve's vertigo experience), their headline would be "Sikhening!!"

5/25/13, 6:32 PM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

Thank you for this- I had never before considered where my generic prescription is manufactured. After some quick research, I discovered that the medication I take for arthritis is indeed manufactured by these Ranbaxy clowns.

5/25/13, 6:39 PM

Anonymous hardly said...

No need for a wakeup call for indians. We already knew all our corporates were rotten to the core. And most of our politicians. And our cops. And our regulators.
What do you think we are, Germany?
On the other hand things in India are probably not very different from the US during the robber baron era.

5/25/13, 6:49 PM

Anonymous Kaz said...

@Sunbeam

Ranbaxy isn't the only Indian pharmaceuticals company.

Regardless, a lot of good Indians completely leave India behind and work in foreign companies.

5/25/13, 6:50 PM

Anonymous anony-mouse said...

Why isn't Pfizer publicizing this? Anyhow not to worry-Dr Reddy's Laboratories (RDY-NYSE) a $6 Billion company will fill in I'm sure.

5/25/13, 6:54 PM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

It's not just drugs. It's everything from computer accessories, to food, major appliances, and automobiles. I recently had to get rid of my GE dishwasher after a mere 4 years -- the wash motor burned out because of poor assembly. The appliance was constructed in Korea from Chinese parts. Even when it worked it worked poorly. I replaced it with a Whirlpool made in the US which works brilliantly. It's my estimate that 50% of the merchandise being shoveled off container ships in Port Oakland is defective and low quality. I once bought a bag of defective balloons at Target for my daughter's birthday party. Balloons. The Chinese manufacturer was experimenting with minimizing the amount of rubber used in the manufacturing process -- the result was a bag full of uninflatable rubber shreads. It boggles the mind. How low can humanity go, cheating a parent trying to please a child. The global supply chain is a crap chute (a little applause. Thank you ladies and germs). I could go on and on about the defective IPhone, the countless pairs of stereo headsets that developed a short or a break after three weeks, the Vizio TV I had to return, the Japanese car with the faulty ignition system, ... Forget Consumer Reports. Nothing will prevent you from being gypped in the global market place. Remember the Frank Zappa song Flakes about the shoddiness of American labor and consumer culture back in the 70's. Well, the current status quo is so much worse with slave master corporations driving a low iq poorly trained third world transnational labor force.

That's my rant.

5/25/13, 7:31 PM

Anonymous Anononymous said...

And the irony is that cholesterol isn't even harmful.

Cholesterol, Lipitor, and Big Government.lewrockwell.com

5/25/13, 7:50 PM

Blogger alexi de sadesky said...

The drugs don't work they just make you worse...

Did you guys really think medicine was exempt from the likes of our modern moral decay?

Why use any of this stuff? Taking a magic pill so you can polish off a can of pringles after sitting at a desk all day is probably not the answer to your woes.

5/25/13, 7:50 PM

Anonymous David said...

>"A report by the Government Accountability Office found that in 2009, regulators inspected only 11% of foreign drug manufacturing plants"<

Good thing - ain't it? - that we're cutting back on commie liberal government inspections like these. The sequester especially can help with cutbacks in regulation. Nor should the gummit inspect or regulate Wall Street. It should keep on giving the street money it says it "just doesn't have." [/sarcasm]

The point about the gestalt shift is interesting. In logic, the burden of proof is on the person who makes a positive claim. The rub is to identify which claim is correctly considered the positive one. It seems to me the positive claim is a company's claim ("this product is good"), not a regulator's claim ("prove it"). After all, it's the company that's proposing to manufacture a product and have people use it (e.g., swallow it to live). The company is the one bothering everyone with a new thing, so the company should have to justify it.

But in libertarian/free market/neoliberal/et al. theory, the gestalt is the reverse. "Preemptive punishment" is the libertarians' description of regulation, which they call an abomination or at least an inefficiency. In this gestalt, you're supposed to assume that the positive claim is true, and that the onus should be on the regulator.

The analogue used to justify this is the presumption of innocence. But this analogy is applied incorrectly here. A person is "innocent until proven guilty" only because he presents no positive evidence of criminal activity. But someone who has come to the attention of the regulators has done so for taking positive action.

To elaborate: a man who is only walking down the street or otherwise minding his own business is correctly presumed to be innocent of crime, because only positive evidence would link him to crime, and there is no positive evidence. He is merely following the regular course of his life. He isn't wielding a bloody ax, for example. Nor, switching to a non-criminal context, is he making any (perceptible and novel) positive claim to others and expecting their consent with it (e.g., "buy my tacos, they're goooooooood!"). He isn't doing a damn thing.

A company making a product for us to use, however, is making a positive move. Or in other words, its request for our participation in something new or unusual rests on a positive claim (or entire chains of positive claims). A company should therefore provide us or our representatives with justification of its actions. It should have to pass inspection in everything it proposes to do. A presumption of innocence - or of guilt - doesn't apply here. What applies is only the burden of proof principle.

The other rightie argument against regulation is that regulators are naturally corrupt. This argument assumes that the checking of positive claims is intrinsically malign or otherwise bad, while the makers of positive claims should be given the benefit of every doubt. This is not only exactly backward logically, it's also a primitive recipe for the triumph of crooks over the gullible.

5/25/13, 7:55 PM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

Jobs Americans won't do.

5/25/13, 7:56 PM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

As the spouse of someone who had a cerebral hemorrhage several months back, I can assure you that insurance companies are not fans of name brand drugs, and they will not cover the cost. It's generic, or you pay (incredible sums) out of pocket for Big Pharma's patented meds.

I have no idea if an allergic reaction he suffered several months ago was due to a substandard generic drug or to the poor medical care at a rehabilitation facility.

5/25/13, 7:59 PM

Anonymous candid_observer said...

"In my experience, people of German backgrounds tend to be particularly prone to worry about poisoning."

Interesting observation (and probable hatefact). Kurt Godel, an ethnic German, apparently died by starving himself to death, driven by anxiety that he was being poisoned.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurt_G%C3%B6del#Later_years_and_death

5/25/13, 8:09 PM

Anonymous RJ101 said...

I've been taking ibuprofen for years for a back injury. I take 800mg per dose. For year I bought the big bottles of generic ibuprofen at Target or Walmart. It helped but I was still in pain.

Last summer I was at my sisters house and took the same dose of her OTC Motrin. I felt great! Worked like a charm. I told my doc about it later. He said if he had known I was buying generics he would have told me to take 1000mg. He said generics are almost always at least 25% less effective. He also said there are some brands that are no better than placebos. I only buy name brand OTCs now.

5/25/13, 8:24 PM

Blogger beowulf said...

It had been nine months since Thakur had first contacted the agency. He had watched as Ranbaxy got six new approvals. The FDA agent who had taken charge of his case tried to ease his frustration. "Imagine, if you will, that we were able to prove even half of what you have told us," she wrote to Thakur. "This would bring down the entire corporation. One of the largest in the world."

This country is going to hell because "though the heaven's may fall, let justice be done" has been replaced with Too Big To Fail.

5/25/13, 8:26 PM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

@ anon 7:31 PM

Thanks for the info. That explains a lot about my disastrous experience with purchasing home appliances for the past 5 years. I wish I knew that about GE before wasting my money on their stuff. I always though GE was as American as apple pie.

I bought a GE stove from Sears 4 years ago and have had nothing but problems with it. Within the first two years, Sears had to send a technician to my house 3 times for repairs. But now the warranty is over I am out of luck. Only 2 of the 4 burners are working right now :(

I also bought a Kenmore fridge from Sears at the same time, and have also had problems with it. Sears had to send a technician to my house within the first 6 months of buying it because the freezer was producing frost. Right now, the fridge section is producing water in the vegetable container section. But my warranty is over so I am out of luck.

On the other hand, I bought a Whirlpool washing machine + dryer from Costco 5 years ago and have had no problems at all. From now on, I will only buy Whirlpool.

5/25/13, 8:35 PM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

"... Too Big To Fail"


Why the West is failing... Nothing can be allowed to fail... Nothing can be wrong... even if we have to pretend.

5/25/13, 8:52 PM

Blogger DR said...

"I'd hate to think of how bad China would be if they weren't shooting people."

Hong Kong, Taiwan, Singapore and Macau are all majority Chinese countries where they don't shoot business executives. 3 out of the 4 are wealthier than the US and the other will be soon since its economic growth rate is much higher.

Without a doubt the 21st century will belong to the Chinese. America should be doing everything it can to get on their good side now.

5/25/13, 8:58 PM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

My dad died of septic shock due to a foot infection he developed in hospital. He was treated with a couple of different antibiotics. Now I'll never know if my dad was a hopeless case or if a dirty Sikh pig CEO peddled adulterated drugs to the medical center treating him.

I wish Malvinder Singh death by anal cancer.

5/25/13, 9:03 PM

Blogger Average Joe said...

a big criminal enterprise that sometimes managed to deliver pills that more or less worked

Probably the placebo effect.

5/25/13, 9:06 PM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

Ranbaxy's response from 3 days ago:

http://www.thehindu.com/business/Industry/ranbaxy-pumps-in-300-m-globally-for-products-safety/article4739756.ece

5/25/13, 9:32 PM

Anonymous Dr Van Nostrand said...

I don't understand India at all. I really don't."

And you probably never will

I knew some really intelligent Indians in grad school."

Thanks for that,where would we be without your condescension?

I have read that some elements of the high castes in India have intelligence equal to Jews."

That statement there tells me all I need to gauge your level of India's knowledge.

But on the whole... they sure do a good job of not seeming too smart."

Given your self confessed ignorance of all things Indian, why should anyone give a damn?

Or rather of not doing a good job at a lot of things."

Very few are good at a "lot of things".

This Ranbaxy thing ,the outsourcing fiascoes et al convey a very simple fact- India is not ready for prime time.
They need to be less ambitious and more selective about which of companies gain foreign exposure.
Corruption remains rather serious affair and with globalization this dirty laundry is being aired in public. If India doesnt get their shit together, they deserve this and far worse PR.

I just don't get this culture. I read things, meet people, talk to them. But I don't understand why they want to be the way they are."

That's because you are an idiot.

I want no part of it. Plus I don't really like Indian food. That is way down my list of cuisines."

LOL, QED I suppose!

And as regards what you wrote "In China, some executives would have been shot a long time ago. But India is all post-modern and not into that kind of out of date harshness."

I'd hate to think of how bad China would be if they weren't shooting people."

what 60 million wasnt enough for you?

I dont know why Steve follows this silly meme that India is post modern. If some idiot SWPL feel more affinity to India than China due to their foolish misconceptions about India, why should Indian be blamed.

Chinese corruption is just as pervasive as India's . You really think a multi billion dollar pharmaeutical company in China who undoubtedly grease the right palms will be shut down and the owner executed just because a few dead kids?

The parents of the dead Chinese children will follow the government directives whereas the Indian parents will organize lynch mobs.

Who is post modern now?

5/25/13, 9:48 PM

Blogger David F. said...

Great article.

Regarding your remark about the jury: what was its racial/sexual makeup and proportion of native English speaking jurors?

I recall a story about a British jury made up mostly of immigrants that had to be sent home because they kept asking the judge questions that revealed that they had no idea what was going on, even after repeated explanations.

5/25/13, 10:30 PM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

Indian diplomas are also largely counterfeit. At my USA university, we accept many "high-scoring" Indian students, only to find that they are complete idiots -- often extremely spoiled little emperors and empresses, with no practical knowledge, but a healthy expectation of entitlement.

5/25/13, 10:33 PM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

This also ought to be a wake-up call for India that it's high-end culture has severe problems, but I doubt if the message will get through. Nor will I expect this story to do any damage to India's image in America. The president and Tom Friedman keep telling us that the geniuses in China and India are going to eat our lunch, so what's a vivid case story when it conflicts with The Narrative?

A particular problem with the narrative is that many people in the US try to set up India as the friendly, democratic, English-speaking outsourcing alternative to China. But the people I've talked to who have had experience working with India and working with China have told me that China is far preferable to India -- that India is more corrupt, that Indians are more racist, and that sometimes your employees just don't bother to show up.

And even in Gurgaon, at least as of a few years ago when I last visited, they have blackouts literally every day. Their infrastructure is terrible. And Gurgaon is full of glitzy buildings with the Indian subsidiaries of big multinational companies. In walled compounds. With armed guards, who search under your car with mirrors (for bombs, I guess). That's the nice part of India.

India has a long way to go before I'd trust anything made in India.

5/25/13, 10:39 PM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Without a doubt the 21st century will belong to the Chinese."

As DVN notes, corruption in China is no less than in India. It also doesn't speak well of the place that a large portion of its wealthy citizens express a strong desire to leave when surveyed. It also has natural resources limitations, although I suppose that's one reason why they are in Africa. The U.S. is certainly in a period of relative decline, but China hasn't made it yet. Strong nationalistic leadership of the sort this country used to have could prop us up for a while, but we probably won't be lucky enough to get it.

5/25/13, 10:45 PM

Anonymous The Czechen said...

81 Americans died and hundreds were seriously hurt due to counterfeit Heparin from China, uncovered in 2008. Let me know which Chinese executive was shot for this.

5/25/13, 11:37 PM

Blogger Whiskey said...

Steve, the FT has been covering this story as well.

The FT has also been on top of Indian corruption and mismanagement, only about 10% of the inhabitants of the largest state have indoor toilets. They just use a tiled room in the house with a fabric cover and have the untouchables scoop out the poop through a doggie door. No, really.

India, to a lesser extent Brazil, is a mismanaged corrupt madhouse with no real hope of being anything but an impoverished hellhole. That comes through loud and clear in the FT articles.

5/25/13, 11:56 PM

Anonymous Dr Van Nostrand said...


A particular problem with the narrative is that many people in the US try to set up India as the friendly, democratic, English-speaking outsourcing alternative to China. But the people I've talked to who have had experience working with India and working with China have told me that China is far preferable to India -- that India is more corrupt, that Indians are more racist, and that sometimes your employees just don't bother to show up."


India for sure has been oversold and is overrated.
But Im not sure of it being more corrupt than China. You find more evidences of corruption in India due to its openness. Corruption in China may not be as brazen but its more ambitious and pernicious especially because its not talked about.
How exactly is India racist and to whom? I am talking about foreigners? Not intra Indian bigotry.

These employees are most likely lower castes who were hired due to our version affirmative action. It has devastated pretty much all institutions in India. I dont know what solution there is for this.

And even in Gurgaon, at least as of a few years ago when I last visited, they have blackouts literally every day. Their infrastructure is terrible. And Gurgaon is full of glitzy buildings with the Indian subsidiaries of big multinational companies. In walled compounds. With armed guards, who search under your car with mirrors (for bombs, I guess). That's the nice part of India."

I remember growing in India and going to movie theaters without the benefit of passing through metal detectors..sigh

Gurgaon is near Delhi and the infrastructure there is still bloody awful
Bangalore and Hyderabad I believe provide seperate grids for these compounds so they dont suffer from blackouts.

India has a long way to go before I'd trust anything made in India."

You cant go wrong with the more quaint stuff such as sculptures,food and handicrafts LOL
But yeah, light and heavy industry still churn substandard products only somewhat better than they were during "License Raj"

5/25/13, 11:58 PM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

Pharmaceuticals is the hi-tech industry par excellence, in that it employs legions of stereotypical white coated scientists doing highly technical things for big results - and big cash.
As such, it is the ideal industry for the post-industrial societies of the west, who have been shorn (by the globalists) of their industrial base, to move into. In fact one of Britain's very, very few industrial 'stars', Glaxo, typifies this sort of model. The mega-taxes that Glaxo pays on its mega-sales (all wealth produced by handfulls of white-coats), keeps the Great British (more likely Nigerian or Somalian these days) dole-ite in his pocket money and council flat.
Well, my point is that it is rather odd that a third world nation should encroach on he territory that belongs to the post industrial loser states, whilst apparently by-passing the inter-mediate stage, from oxen to the deep structure of peptide chains, all in one jump.
If the big, fat degenerate loser western nations give up on pharmaceuticals, what the hell have they got left to feed their monster welfare states and to keep throwing bromide-laced sardines to the dole-ites?
As we saw in Woolwich the other day certain types of the 'new' dole-ite seem to need more than 50 quid and a dose of bromide to keep them under.

5/26/13, 12:51 AM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

This is an awesome post, Steve. I always buy generic, I had no idea that this sort of stuff was happening.

5/26/13, 1:43 AM

Anonymous Jerry said...

"Hong Kong, Taiwan, Singapore and Macau are all majority Chinese countries where they don't shoot business executives. 3 out of the 4 are wealthier than the US and the other will be soon since its economic growth rate is much higher."

<<< An absurd comment. I live in Hong Kong, and the majority of the people live in high-rise slums. Car ownership is 20% of households, and in the buses you get blasted with commercials from flat-screen tv's, etc. The government is controlled by tycoons and by China, and is no friend of the middle class. I could go on for a few hours about comparing countries vs. city states, about PPP and quality of life, mean vs median income, but I gotta go.

5/26/13, 1:49 AM

Anonymous Auntie Analogue said...


"But if we fail, then the whole world, including the United States, including all that we have known and cared for, will sink into the abyss of a new dark age made more sinister, and perhaps more protracted, by the lights of perverted science." - Winston Churchill

5/26/13, 1:52 AM

Anonymous The Wobbly Guy said...

China? I'm ethnic chinese, but I'm not blind to the sheer amount of ingenius corruption we are capable of.

We all know about the melanine in milk powder affair.

Then we have discarded sewer oil being reprocessed and sold as cooking oil.

Next we have fake chicken eggs.

Taiwan isn't much better. They used plasticiser as clouding agents.

I'm sure Hong Kong and even my own country of Singapore has their share of corruption we'd like to sweep under the rug. Our only saving grace are the institutions the British bequeathed to us which helps to check these excesses. And we are small city states, which helps too.

India is just too big to be governed or regulated effectively.

5/26/13, 2:17 AM

Anonymous Dr Van Nostrand said...


The FT has also been on top of Indian corruption and mismanagement, only about 10% of the inhabitants of the largest state have indoor toilets. They just use a tiled room in the house with a fabric cover and have the untouchables scoop out the poop through a doggie door. No, really."

Rather like "honey scoopers" in colonial American and "night soil" removers in UK what?

I would like to remind people that most Indian towns and villages had a simple but workable drainage system(Indus Valley civilzation anyone) but the British uprooted it in order to create something better made an utter mess of it, thereby vastly increasing this class of "untouchables"

And another thing, if you have to shed crocodile tears for the "untouchables" for gods sake ,dont use that term as they find it offensive. They prefer the word Dalit, if you want to pretend to care about India's downtrodden ,at least do your homework and pretend properly.
Thank you

5/26/13, 3:04 AM

Anonymous dearieme said...

I was going to say that there is a silver lining: presumably non-statins don't cause statin side effects. But your personal anecdote made me realise that non-statins could cause any old side effect, depending on what is actually in the pills.

5/26/13, 3:05 AM

Anonymous Dr Van Nostrand said...

After that horrible murder in London, I feel much safer now that the UK government has arrested no less than eleven extremely dangerous people.

They are remanded in custody and denied bail.

Yes, they were . . . commenting!"

Insanity! The city authorities seemed more upset at the EDL rally than this barbarism
How much longer can this self defeating lunacy last?

5/26/13, 3:26 AM

Anonymous Working Class Englishman said...

I read that China is just as corrupt as India. But its easier to do business in China, since, thanks to the communist party, there is only one bunch of people to bribe.

5/26/13, 4:48 AM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

Troubling story. In some ways it has me scratching my head. Why are the Americans retailers not testing the Indian generic drugs before selling? By law I believe they should.

Around a decade ago i worked in the health food industry, with some overlap into the pharmaceutical business. I was in purchasing, and as a result would work closely with the quality assurance people. My impression was by law it was required that testing needed to be done on products purchased by US firms.

For example, in this case if I were to purchase 10 million generic Lipitor pills from Ranbaxy - once the product arrived the QA department would have the people in Operations pull product samples. From the SOPs there was a basic formula on how many samples to randomly pull based upon quantities per batch/ lot #. The samples would then be brought to QA for testing.

Once this work was done, the generic Lipitor would be placed off to the side, waiting for test results to come back.

These tests are not terribly difficult to do or typically expensive. It wouldn't take more than a few hours most of the time for everything to be figured out. Once testing was done, and if an OK given by QA, then the Operation people would begin to break down the product packages, sending off product to customers, of into storage.

If the product came back as faulty, then it was rejected.

Overall, we kept records of all our testing for FDA inspections.

From my experience back in the day, everyone knew that Chinese and Indian firms couldn't be trusted. They had a reputation for cheating and lying. As one Chinese told me, in his country it wasn't a lie unless one was caught. With their type of government, from what the average Chinese saw and heard, it wasn't hard to see why this was the case.

Overall though, you don't really trust anyone, regardless of were the product came from. In the end it was your company and reputation at stake. The Americans that picked up faulty Indian drugs probably think poorly on Ranbaxy after this article. They likely think even poorer on the hospital and pharmacy that sold them the crappy products that endangered their lives.

5/26/13, 4:51 AM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

Perhaps Taki had a nice lunch with a big pharma exec?

These generic drugs do help reducing medical costs. Sure sometimes it is bad, but overall their existence help people.

Big pharma wants to charge an arm and leg every time and not everyone can afford to please them.

Whatever evil these indians did, their cut was smaller th an that of big pharma. Their net benefit is bigger than the harm they caused.

5/26/13, 5:31 AM

Anonymous Hunsdon said...

DR: Sir, you miss the point. It is not about wealth-producing, it is about holding wealth-producers accountable.

Steve, this is a massively depressing post. For me, the essence of conservatism was that "actions have consequences," but we seem to live in a consequence free world, if one has enough money.

Thanks for this one.

5/26/13, 5:39 AM

Blogger sunbeam said...

Dr Van Nostrand wrote: Lots

I don't think you understand. I don't care at all. I would prefer to have zero immigration from India. No outsourcing to India. No imports from India.

Send all the visa holders from India home. Heck pull our embassies out of India. If India wants to leave an embassy here that's find I suppose. It's not like they are going to have a lot to do.

If some tourists want to go to India, and India wants them, well good. If they get killed somehow or jailed or something, well it's their problem.

In short, have nothing to do with India. I can't think of a single positive thing dealing with that country has ever led to.

I don't want to have condescension for Indians, I just want absolutely nothing to do with them in any way.

That simple enough for you? I don't want to exploit you or anything like that.

I just want nothing to do with you.

What's the downside? If somehow India becomes some economic dynamo nation, well good for you.

But I won't sit up nights wondering about lost opportunities.

5/26/13, 5:39 AM

Anonymous Mitch said...

You spooked me, I checked the one drug I take daily. Maker: Qualitest. American. Hope that makes a difference. Sad I have to worry.

5/26/13, 5:41 AM

Blogger rightsaidfred said...

Re: anon's "crap chute" comment.

Yeah, it's surprising how anxious we are to import shoddy merchandise from everywhere. And on the other end, we are also anxious to import the overly complicated, fragile, and overpriced stuff from Europe. We have some trait that tells us things are better somewhere else. Might be linked to anti-incest traits.

5/26/13, 5:45 AM

Anonymous FWG said...

Pfizer,$115 profit over ten years. Explains how one of their lawyers just built a 20,000 sq. ft. house down the road from me. This place is incredible. Great work, Steve.

5/26/13, 6:30 AM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

Two thoughts come to mind (well, three if I count the box of Chinese light bulbs I bought a few years ago, every one of which broke apart when I tried to remove it from the light fixture): my daughter is on medication for epilipsy, and a couple of years ago when our insurance company required her to switch from name brand to the generic version of one of her medications (much cheaper), she immediately resumed having seizures...we had to go through an appeal process.Based, in part, on her doctor's opinion that the generic was not effective, we got her restored to the brand name med. Result? The seizures stopped.
The final thought: did Ranbaxy have a political sponsor in the U.S. government, such as a friendly congressman? If this Ranbaxy matter gets publicised, as it should, watch politicians who were friendly to their U.S. operations scurry for cover.Unfortunately, the U.S. media is now so debased that they seem incapable of true reporting, but we can always hope.

5/26/13, 6:49 AM

Anonymous Cail Corishev said...

Without a doubt the 21st century will belong to the Chinese. America should be doing everything it can to get on their good side now.

You could be right, but I'm curious: how hard would it be to find quotes from the 1980s making the exact same claim about the Japanese? Remember when they were buying up American land and businesses, and we were all going to work for them any day now?

5/26/13, 8:08 AM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

Yeah, David, it's the lack of inspections. Couldn't be that we've outsourced our material concerns and health to low-trust cultures.

And most damning of all, were getting there ourselves.

5/26/13, 8:25 AM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

In India the Naxalite Maoist insurgency grinds on:

"Suspected rebels kill 24; India officials outraged", Ashok Sharma, AP, May 26 2013.

"... 200 suspected Maoist rebels... killed 24 people by setting off a bomb and firing on a convoy carrying ruling party leaders and members in an insurgency-wracked state. ... 37 people ... were injured...

...one of those dead ... founded a local militia, the Salwa Judum, to combat the Maoist rebels. The anti-rebel militia had to be reined in after it was accused of atrocities against tribals - indigenous people at the bottom of India's rigid social ladder.

...dead also included state Congress party chief ... and his son.

...Prime Minister Singh has called the rebels India's biggest internal security threat. They are now present in 20 of India's 28 states and have thousands of fighters, according to the Home Ministry. .... been fighting the central government for more than four decades..."


The smell of peace in the morning. Sounds kind of like a wanna-be Mexican Revolution in the making. Perhaps not really war, just violant chaos. Make big bucks and head to Switzerland, now there's a plan.

5/26/13, 8:59 AM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

Stories of Indian "corruption" should not shock people here. As an Indian, I feel bemused when I see other Indians complain vociferously about corruption among themselves but get very offended if white foreigners complain about this.

HOWEVER, trying to pretend that India is uniquely corrupt shows a certain naivete about the world. Actually, lack of corruption is the exception in the world. Which countries are really clean (relatively speaking)? North Europe, US, Canada and Japan. Any others? What about Latin America? How bad is Africa? What about the Central Asian Republics? How bad is Russia? And there is also a LOT of naivete about China. The Chinese political leadership has been known to frame and/or execute leaders deemed a threat to them. I have yet to come across stories of mayors of Indian cities found floating in lakes or rivers as happens in China from time to time. Read about Bo Xilai. China is actually not just corrupt, its Ponzi scheme real estate market bubble is fast becoming the biggest systemic risk to the global economy.

And in Europe, there are tales of corruption from places like Greece that would shock most Americans (read Michael Lewis's articles in Vanity Fair about Greece). I don't even want to get started about Italy or Spain or Portugal. Even Ireland has some.

Last time I checked Greeks did not have particularly low IQs on an average. Distilling the world's politics down to a simple denominator like IQ shows an ignorance about the world. Consider another example: Armenians are a very very successful ethnic group in America and elsewhere. Yet why is Armenia the country such a hell-hole even now? IQ explains a few things but a lot more needs to be learnt about the religion, history and politics of countries.

5/26/13, 10:14 AM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

Corruption in India is actually worse than this article presents. Check this out:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saradha_Group_financial_scandal

5/26/13, 10:17 AM

Blogger pat said...

I did as you advised and looked for the makers of all the drugs I take everyday. I did not find Ranbaxy but I did find another Indian company Aurobindo pharma. Do you know anything bad about them that isn't yet in Wikipedia?

However most of my pill bottles from Kaiser do not show the pill maker at all.

I took Lipitor for a while but I had side effects that made me stop. Then I tried every other statin until finally finding one that agreed with me. BTW I don't have high cholesterol and never have. I also have no signs of atherosclerosis. Kaiser seems to prescribe statins for just about everyone.

I resisted stains because although they do lower cholesterol it is well known now that cholesterol levels alone are almost meaningless. Historically cholesterol became famous because it was easy to test for while more meaningful blood lipids to test for like Low Density Lipoproteins were only developed later.

It is true that statins lower some blood lipids and it seems to be true that statins increase life span but it is not necessarily true that that is because of their effect on blood lipids. Like many other connections in medicine the actual action of statins is empirical not one proceeding from theory. Or I should say one proceeding from a true theory.

Statins block a biosynthetic pathway rather early in its process. That means that while it interferes with the synthesis of various lipids it also interferes with other processes. And no one knows just which ones.

But after being doubled teamed by my doctor and the pharmacist who called me at home to harangue me, I persisted until I found a statin that did not make me sick. I take Pravastatin every day now, but not because I'm convinced it improves my health but only to stop from being hounded by Kaiser.

Albertosaurus

Albertosaurus

5/26/13, 10:42 AM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

Re: Dr. Van Nostrad:

"But Im not sure of it being more corrupt than China. You find more evidences of corruption in India due to its openness. Corruption in China may not be as brazen but its more ambitious and pernicious especially because its not talked about."

Yeah, China is pretty famously corrupt. These are ordinary business managers/execs I hear this from, though, so maybe it's just that the Indians they dealt with were more obvious in holding out their hands for bribes or whatever than the Chinese.

"How exactly is India racist and to whom? I am talking about foreigners? Not intra Indian bigotry."

I've never followed-up on that, but it's something I've heard pretty consistently, and not just from Americans who have been trained to see racism under every rock.

My personal dealings with India have been a lot more limited, but I haven't noticed much. I've never been posted on an extended assignment to India, though.

5/26/13, 11:05 AM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

Remember that Indians have an iq less than even some African nations. It is true that many of the smartest people in the world are Indians, but this is mainly because of the caste system.

What happens when an entire nation with an iq of 81 self segregates the smartest people? After a couple thousand years you get some people with incredibly high iq's. The rest of India is still filled with third world people who have an iq barely above that of an African.

5/26/13, 11:22 AM

Anonymous Melykin said...

Indian diplomas are also largely counterfeit. At my USA university, we accept many "high-scoring" Indian students, only to find that they are complete idiots -- often extremely spoiled little emperors and empresses, with no practical knowledge, but a healthy expectation of entitlement.

-------------------------------


Ditto Saudi Arabian students. They are mostly dumb as posts.

5/26/13, 12:42 PM

Anonymous mel belli said...

Can anyone tell me if the Simvastatin provided by Medco is a Ranbaxy product? The relative at issue can't be convinced to stay off statins, so brand is the relevant issue.

5/26/13, 12:46 PM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

Pfizer is the biggest thug in pharma and experienced in blackmailing those who get in the way.

Back in 1996, Pfizer ran a trial in Kano, Nigeria on children sick with meningitis amidst an outbreak that killed thousands in the country. The control group was given a lower than standard dose to make the Pfizer drug look effective.

When American plaintiffs lawyers and the Nigerian government came knocking, one of the things that deep state operatives from Pfizer did was to dig up dirt on the Attorney General of Nigeria to drop his line of inquiry.

Talk about a conspiracy.

Kano litigation

5/26/13, 12:47 PM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

Are you ready to reconsider your position that enforcement of the foreign corrupt practices act is a bad idea?

The law is designed so that powerful corporations can't form dangerous conspiracies with government leaders.

The impetus for the law was the Lockheed scandals of the 60s when Lockheed used bribery to sell fighters to many close allies. From that point on, sensible people realized just how dangerous a corporation could become if it could conspire with the leadership of even close allies on subjects of military/foreign policy.

If anything the foreign corrupt practices act needs to be expanded.

5/26/13, 12:50 PM

Blogger AMac said...

> What was Pfizer's gross margin on Lipitor?

On consumable products with high, price-insensitive demand that don't face competition (like name-brand drugs without generic equivalents), the gross margin will generally be 80% or higher.

5/26/13, 1:02 PM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

White people have scammed more billions out more people on this planet than the rest of the world combined thanks to the federal reserve.

Say what you want about Indians, but it is white people who have stolen and defrauded people out of entire continents. What countries has India conquered and plundered?

5/26/13, 1:11 PM

Anonymous IA said...

There are western embassies in India (and China). The people who work there are smart. They know about rampant adulteration and incompetence in these places and report back to Washington.

My take was that the Indians were too poor to really screw things up; whereas the Chinese are rich enough to do serious damage to themselves and the rest of the world. It appears since I lived in India they are catching up with the Chinese.

Its not because of a lack of inspectors, poverty, education, or IQ. Its endemic, cultural-wide corruption. The worst are at the top, the smart ones. We take our relative honesty for granted. But, in the rest of the world (ROW) you can't do that or you're dead.

5/26/13, 1:32 PM

Anonymous jody said...

steve setting a record for longest post yet. a true TL/DNR scenario.

5/26/13, 1:33 PM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

Kaiser Permanente, the flag ship HMO for ObamaCare, dispenses mostly Indian pharma generics, made by companies like Global and Lupin. Be very afraid if you are a Kaiser patient.

5/26/13, 1:56 PM

Blogger gubbler, champion of all things checheny(except criminality) said...

http://youtu.be/5ukqfqIPFhw

Everything you need to know about India.

5/26/13, 2:56 PM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Red Pill" plus this expose plus your personal anecdote...

Brilliant, Steve.

5/26/13, 5:16 PM

Anonymous as said...

I couldn't find it, but I remember reading about an Indian run drug manufacturing plant in the US in which they sent tainted goods to the market which ended up killing people in America. The Indian owners absconded or tried to abscond.

The drug was some kind of cancer drug and came in syringes or some sort of ready to use dispenser. They had cut corners with regards to sterilty standards?

I think it happened in 2007 or 2008.

5/26/13, 5:44 PM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

"On the other hand things in India are probably not very different from the US during the robber baron era. " - It took the closest we've come to a second civil war to end the robber baron era, so uh, good luck with that.

5/26/13, 7:58 PM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Without a doubt the 21st century will belong to the Chinese. America should be doing everything it can to get on their good side now." - After a century of just and honorable behavior from a position of strength I doubt there is much possibility, either of us being able to do more, or us being able to get on their good side.

5/26/13, 8:03 PM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Big pharma wants to charge an arm and leg every time and not everyone can afford to please them." - Big pharma pays for the R&D that creates new drugs. when the generics maker come up with something that saves lives, rather than copying and pasting( and diluting ) a product, let us know.

5/26/13, 8:14 PM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

Something else that maybe keeps Indians on edge but that we don't hear about much is that the Pakistan-Indian border in places is a "hot" border, even though India and Pakistan are "at peace". Here's the Chinese take on an Indian Brigadier General and two troopers getting wounded today:

"Several wounded in fire exchange between India, Pakistan in Kashmir", English.news.cn, 2013-05-25.

"An Indian army Brigader and two troopers were wounded in exchange of fire between Pakistani troopers on line of control (LoC) ...

Earlier this year skirmishes between Indian and Pakistani troopers... Five troopers of both the countries (two from India and three from Pakistan) were killed in these skirmishes ..."


I don't recall hearing about this. Did you? The MSM probably had some dancing girls to cover or something else important.

5/26/13, 9:11 PM

Anonymous Dr Van Nostrand said...

And in Europe, there are tales of corruption from places like Greece that would shock most Americans (read Michael Lewis's articles in Vanity Fair about Greece). I don't even want to get started about Italy or Spain or Portugal. Even Ireland has some.

Last time I checked Greeks did not have particularly low IQs on an average. Distilling the world's politics down to a simple denominator like IQ shows an ignorance about the world. Consider another example: Armenians are a very very successful ethnic group in America and elsewhere. Yet why is Armenia the country such a hell-hole even now? IQ explains a few things but a lot more needs to be learnt about the religion, history and politics of countries."


Interesting trivia on the Greeks. I think it was a Greek historian ,one of the classical ones dont remember which, commented that Greeks couldnt help embezzling funds no matter how strictly they were watched.He contrasted their behavior with the Romans who were known (or rather notorious) for their honesty and frugality.
There is the apocryphal story about a Phoenician(or Carthiginian) delegation paying a diplomatic visit to the to the elite families in Rome.
And they were amused that all families seemed to be using the same silver bowl.

Greek travellers in India noted that the Indians were scrupulously honest in their dealings.

Of course this was all a long long time ago!

5/26/13, 10:56 PM

Anonymous Dr Van Nostrand said...


...Prime Minister Singh has called the rebels India's biggest internal security threat. They are now present in 20 of India's 28 states and have thousands of fighters, according to the Home Ministry. .... been fighting the central government for more than four decades..."

The smell of peace in the morning. Sounds kind of like a wanna-be Mexican Revolution in the making. Perhaps not really war, just violant chaos. Make big bucks and head to Switzerland, now there's a plan."

Im from Andhra Pradesh ,one of the HQsof Naxal activity. It doesnt really interfere in day to day life unlike the Mexican drug war.
The targets are usually politicians and select landlords.

It has only intensified because the centre left Congress wants to put an end to their movement which is really their sibling in ideology
(the movement was actively encouraged by the Humanities staff of Jawaharlal Nehru Universities)

Say what you want about India,its record against internal trouble makers be they Sikhs,Kashmiris,Northeastern tribals,famous bandits or what have you is a strong one. The Indian government in the end always gets its man or in the case of Phoolan Devi, its woman.

5/26/13, 11:02 PM

Anonymous Dr Van Nostrand said...

sunbeam in his infinite wisdom noted..

I don't think you understand. I don't care at all. I would prefer to have zero immigration from India. No outsourcing to India. No imports from India."


DVN: I understand just fine. You are a nativist.I dont mean that in a bad way, I just mean that in an idiot way.
There is smart nativism(Sailer on his good days) and there is isnt ,you are the latter.

Send all the visa holders from India home. Heck pull our embassies out of India. If India wants to leave an embassy here that's find I suppose. It's not like they are going to have a lot to do.

DVN: While you pull your embassy from India, be sure to pull out of Pakistan as well and leave them to us. But oh no you couldnt have that.
You cultivated those gangsters for these and they were your SOBs ,well now they are just SOBs!
A fat lot of good that did you. Congratulations on yet another foreign policy victory.
As for visa holders, sure send them back but remember , no one put a gun to the heads of middle class whites and forced them to take a loan so that they could major in transgendered 18th centurty Fijian interpretive dance or some such nonsense.
Dont be upset with me if all the jobs they can get is asking me if I could like a biscotti with my cafe latte.
Middle class white obviously have the IQ for STEM but they lack the will and discipline.
Best of luck running an economy or research departments without "visa holders"


If some tourists want to go to India, and India wants them, well good. If they get killed somehow or jailed or something, well it's their problem.

DVN: Some one has been watching Banged Up Abroad marathons!
Indian police may be corrupt but not that corrupt! The problem is a lot of idiot tourists, both Western and non Western ,give them excuses.
Drunkenness, drug taking, nude sunbathing, sexual promiscuity are overlooked by the populace and authorities until they start flaunting it.And thats when the locals get irritated.
As for killing and rapes,thats tragic I would advise these damn fools not to go to dangerous areas unescorted. Especially women seem to lack basic common sense. Heck didnt someone teach not to get in cars with strangers?
Yes thats their problem, but these problems are not unique to India as you seem to imagine.

5/26/13, 11:29 PM

Anonymous Dr Van Nostrand said...

..contd


In short, have nothing to do with India. I can't think of a single positive thing dealing with that country has ever led to.

DVN: Thats because for most of our existence you were dealing with Pakistan. We wanted to offer positive things like intelligence related to 9/11 but some nativist knowitalls at the FBI and CIA didnt think much of the work of silly dotheads like myself.
Reap the whirlwind.

I don't want to have condescension for Indians, I just want absolutely nothing to do with them in any way.

DVN: Most Indians like Americans but if what you wish comes to pass, they will get by.
As for you I am sure you will be fine ..in the end...I would like to remind the "third world" is a good chunk(if not often the majority) of the market share for much of your products be they foodstuffs,movies or military hardware.
Indians in their patriotic fervor will do without Pepsi,coke or KFC. Ban hollywood movies from screening.
Ok you would say that is just India, a nation of a paupers -who cares. Well this may well have a ripple effect. India once the leader of the non aligned block and this may "stir a sleeping giant" if you will and many countries may do the same in solidarity.
Yup ,great strategy in reducing your market share to sclerotic Europe and ....yeah
Be careful what you wish for.Need I remind what happened the last time you indulged in a trade war in the middle of a recession?

That simple enough for you? I don't want to exploit you or anything like that."

DVN: You are really a damn idiot. Who said anything about exploitation?

I just want nothing to do with you.

DVN: I want nothing to do with you as a person. You sound like a sullen ,charmless troll.

What's the downside? If somehow India becomes some economic dynamo nation, well good for you.

DVN: Please I dont require good wishes from inauspicious people such as yourself.I would prefer you curse us!

But I won't sit up nights wondering about lost opportunities.

DVN: I think you are confused.Because no one asked you to? Do you even know how to read?

5/26/13, 11:30 PM

Anonymous Dr Van Nostrand said...


Remember that Indians have an iq less than even some African nations. It is true that many of the smartest people in the world are Indians, but this is mainly because of the caste system. "


This is such nonsense. Which countries? who was tested , how many?
Testing large countries for something as IQ test not accounting for the language barrier, education and nutrition is fraught is inconsistencies

What happens when an entire nation with an iq of 81 self segregates the smartest people? After a couple thousand years you get some people with incredibly high iq's. The rest of India is still filled with third world people who have an iq barely above that of an African."

Your knowledge of India is as impressive as sunbeam. And despite your above average IQs ,you are both stupid enough to take that as a compliment Im sure.

5/26/13, 11:22 AM
Melykin said...
Indian diplomas are also largely counterfeit. At my USA university, we accept many "high-scoring" Indian students, only to find that they are complete idiots -- often extremely spoiled little emperors and empresses, with no practical knowledge, but a healthy expectation of entitlement.

-------------------------------


Ditto Saudi Arabian students. They are mostly dumb as posts."

Which university and in which fields are these students? Where di they transfer from?There is rampant cheating in many universities for sure.
But most Americans universities know the score and weed them out.
Its pretty hard to cheat on GREs, Koreans may do it on SATs. But not am aware of Indians trying or being successful at it.

Most Saudis are knuckleads but the smart ones arereally smart and Ive met quite a few who were aces in math.
But I think the smartest Arabs are Palestinians,Jordanians,Egyptians and Iraqis.
The rest are dunces.

5/26/13, 11:39 PM

Anonymous Dr. Oregon said...

I haven't read the whole Fortune article so I don't know if Ms. Eban covered it, but I wonder if Ranbaxy being treated so gently by the FDA for so long, despite numerous and repeated violations, had anything to do with FDA staff being Indian. It would not surprise me at all if this were the case.

I have seen many times in tech companies on the West Coast whole divisions or groups where you have Indians having mostly other Indians reporting to them, and so on for several layers. I think this is more prevalent with Indians than with Chinese, even though they are present in comparable numbers.

I get suspicious any time when I see ethnic segregation like that, and I say this as an immigrant from Eastern Europe. Your generic whitebread Americans seem too naive or brainwashed to notice or care, but people from places with greater distrust of government certainly do notice, and worry.

I am now going through a patent application process. The examiner and his supervisor are both Indians. In the USPTPO, wtf? From what I can tell, the examiner can't write English that well, or is simply careless (typos, misspellings, bad sentence structure). He cites references that have nothing to do with what he's talking about, and doesn't seem to read carefully what we write. I wonder if he's just incompetent or malicious. But the U.S. is screwed either way.

5/27/13, 12:48 AM

Anonymous Dr Van Nostrand said...


I've never followed-up on that, but it's something I've heard pretty consistently, and not just from Americans who have been trained to see racism under every rock. "

To be sure ,Indians are prejudiced against blacks despite their fondness for Obama.

A lot of this racism is mostly ignorance combined with an arrogance that barely concealed an inferiority complex as far as Westerners are concerned anyway.

That normally doesnt prevent them from extending hospitality to Western people if they so accept it

5/27/13, 3:14 AM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Best of luck running an economy or research departments without "visa holders""

Yup, that tells us all we need to know.


"I am now going through a patent application process. The examiner and his supervisor are both Indians. In the USPTPO, wtf?"

Yes, the US patent office somehow became an AA, or AA-let's-pretend, ghetto. Their caseload is also so heavy that it seems to mostly be a paper-work and forms-processing facility. They don't seem to be doing a lot of reading for content.

5/27/13, 7:51 AM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

The FDA may have bigger problems than ethnic nepotism, though that may well exist. A general problem with government regulation in the modern world is that too often the only people who know enough to do the regulation are completely entangled in the industries they are supposed to regulate. For instance:

"The journal Nature reported in 2005 that 70% of FDA panels writing clinical guidelines on prescription drug usage contained at least one member with financial links to drug companies whose products were covered by those guidelines. In the most egregious instance, every member of a panel which recommended the use of epoeitin alfa in HIV patients had received money from a manufacturer of that drug..."


I lay a lot of the blame for this in the very deliberate destruction of the competitive Civil Service in the US, in the interest of advancing the number of visible minorities in higher civil service positions. Another drawback of the AA-state.

5/27/13, 10:16 AM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

Apologies for a completely botched link, the right link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_the_Food_and_Drug_Administration

"Criticism of the Food and Drug Administration"


"... every member of a panel which recommended the use ... had received money from a manufacturer of that drug."

5/27/13, 10:22 AM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

see: Conquest's 3rd Law

5/27/13, 11:57 PM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

I would like to remind people that most Indian towns and villages had a simple but workable drainage system(Indus Valley civilzation anyone) but the British uprooted it in order to create something better made an utter mess of it, thereby vastly increasing this class of "untouchables"

You are such a brazen liar "Van Nostrand"!

Blame your culture and religion for your sorry sanitation and hygiene. The Indus Valley culture predates the Vedic Hindu culture.

5/28/13, 9:27 PM

Anonymous Dr Van Nostrand said...


You are such a brazen liar "Van Nostrand"!

Blame your culture and religion for your sorry sanitation and hygiene. The Indus Valley culture predates the Vedic Hindu culture."


Well if you implicate that the social structure of myreligion is based on nothing more than mundane concepts occupation then it is only natural that a change socio economic factors and living conditions will create upheavals and changes in the current structure.

I never claimed that occupation was the SOLE determinant of one place in Hindu society but a strong one.

The canard that Indus Valley Civilization was not Vedic Hindu is an old and discredited one.
All the skeletons found were Caucasoid Mediterranean type much like the inhabitants there today.

Shiva, altars and temples are not unVedic either. Of course this would require to have a more thorough knowledge of Hinduism than you can find in those silly Penguin classic books.

5/29/13, 1:14 AM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

The canard that Indus Valley Civilization was not Vedic Hindu is an old and discredited one.

You lie again. No serious objective scholar agrees with that. The language, the horse, the sanitation, the egalitarian housing all prove you a liar.

5/29/13, 1:59 AM

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