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"Response to Crotty's lactose tolerant-centric theory of world history"

13 Comments -

1 – 13 of 13
Blogger Hibernia Girl said...

Crotty's cattle/mild-climate theory certainly must go a long way in explaining why the Irish are not so well endowed IQ-wise. There really was never much need to work out how to survive the winters -- one just moved cattle from the summer grazing grounds up on the hillsides down to lower ground. Most brainpower was, no doubt, devoted to protecting one's cattle from raiders -- or on planning raids. ;-)

On the other hand, maybe just as important is the way state formation, and the attendant decline in tribal social structure, and tribal kinship, set in on the borders of the Roman Empire, while Ireland and the remoter Slavic world lagged behind.

As late as the Early Medieval Period, the Irish were very much marrying their first cousins (had to keep all that cattle in the family!) -- and weren't opposed to forms of polygamy (concubinage). The legal classes in Ireland at the time were shocked and stunned at the Roman Catholic Church's regulations on cousin marriage and, partly in response, set down Ireland's "laws" (as they saw them) -- laws that very much allowed cousin marriage. [See: Cattle Lords and Clansmen: The Social Structure of Early Ireland]

It's not surprising, then, that Ireland was (up until very recently) full of clans and septs that never managed to unite against any common enemy -- or get organised in any other way! Too busy stealing the others' cows.

5/20/08, 5:31 PM

Anonymous SKT said...

It sounds a lot like Jared Diamond's deterministic theories about agricultural endowments driving long term economic development. I think they're interesting, and they may help explain things between say 10,000 BC and 2000 BC, but they're not as good as explaining the more important developments of the last 500 years.

5/20/08, 6:23 PM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

The Scots and Irish sure kept their clannishness compared to other northern Europeans. Look at who is voting for Obama and who is not for some big clues. All the Scandinavians in Minnesota come out in droves for Black Jesus, but the Scots-Irish in Kentucky and West Virginia want nothing to do with it.

I guess those Scots-Irish are just low IQ deviants from the more right thinking whiterpeople.

5/20/08, 6:47 PM

Anonymous testing99 said...

Both the Scots and the Irish suffered terribly from Viking onslaughts, from the 700's onwards to the 1100's, much more so than other Europeans. Compared to other parts of Europe, there were more navigable rivers and/or fjords, more scattered settlements (vulnerable), and greater raiding/settlement parties.

Hard to start a society when you're constantly being raided, half your population hauled off to slavery. It tends to provoke isolationism, clannish-ness, and fighting.

5/20/08, 8:00 PM

Anonymous simon newman said...

"maybe just as important is the way state formation, and the attendant decline in tribal social structure, and tribal kinship, set in on the borders of the Roman Empire, while Ireland and the remoter Slavic world lagged behind"

The last tribal area in northwest Europe was the Scottish Highlands; the clans were finally broken after the 1745 Jacobite rebellion. I don't recall any stereotypes of Scots Highlanders as being lazy and feckless. Of course the Scots highlands are very cold, compared to Ireland, as well as being poor farming land, somewhere where you'd expect people to have to plan for the winter. I think this counter example supports Crotty's hypothesis.

5/21/08, 12:25 AM

Anonymous simon newman said...

testing99:
"Both the Scots and the Irish suffered terribly from Viking onslaughts, from the 700's onwards to the 1100's, much more so than other Europeans."

No, north-east England (for one) suffered much more than did western Ireland. As an explanation this is up there with explaining all of Africa's modern problems by the trans-Atlantic slave trade from a small part of west Africa.

5/21/08, 12:31 AM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

Irish Catholic Americans have higher incomes than WASP Americans. Must be their inferior IQ's.

The so called "Scotts-Irish" people are mostly descendants of Anglo-Saxons and Picts. They are not Irish at all. The real Scottish people of course are of Irish descent.

5/21/08, 12:57 AM

Blogger J. said...

Just for the record, the world´s coldest, cruellest winters are in Mongolia. Locals developed big, ball like heads, very efficient from the energy-conservation point of view. I dont know about their IQ but they conquered the known world several times.

5/21/08, 1:51 AM

Anonymous Josh said...

For what its worth here is Hibernia girl on Crotty:"Crotty is best known in Ireland for his constitutional action agaianst the governments attempt to ratify the EU's Single European Act Treaty by simple majority vote in the Dail rather than referendum.The Supreme Court(uhm,THERES,not ours,although Justice Stevens thinks we should obey foreign courts :) )upheld Crotty.People owe it to him therefore that all new EU treaties transferring further slices of sovereignty to Brussels must be put to popular referendum in Ireland." I assume its the same guy.

5/21/08, 8:04 AM

Anonymous simon newman said...

anon:
"Irish Catholic Americans have higher incomes than WASP Americans. Must be their inferior IQ's.

The so called "Scotts-Irish" people are mostly descendants of Anglo-Saxons and Picts. They are not Irish at all. The real Scottish people of course are of Irish descent."

On your first point, income correlates strongly with urban location. In the USA Irish-Americans are more likely to live in cities, Scots-Irish are more likely to live in rural areas. My Tennessee small-town in-laws live in the middle of nowhere and do very nicely on moderate income.

On your second point, Scots Irish/Ulster Scots are a mix of Romano-British (from south-west Scotland), Anglo-Saxon (mostly from south-east Scotland and northern England), Celtic Picts, Gaelic Scots descendants of the Dal Riati Irish who had previously invaded Caledonia from north-east Ireland, and native northern Irish (closely related to western Scots). I'm Ulster-Scot on my mother's side; a McBride. The McBrides are native to Donegal in north-west Ireland, but they're also a sept of the Scottish MacDonald clan.

If you look at Scots-Irish senator Jim Webb, he has the same classical Irish head shape as Irish actor Colm Meaney and IRA/Sinn Fein leader Martin Maginess. Anyway, we Scots Irish have never gone for racial purity or one-drop theories. It's more about culture and religion (Protestant) than genes.

5/21/08, 8:27 AM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Irish Catholic Americans have higher incomes than WASP Americans. Must be their inferior IQ's."

Source for that please and what do you mean by WASP in this context other than white and not Irish Catholic.

5/21/08, 10:26 AM

Blogger Hibernia Girl said...

Josh: I assume its the same guy.

Yup. Same Raymond Crotty.

5/21/08, 2:08 PM

Anonymous Josh said...

To"hibernia girl. Uhmm...are you seeing anyone at present?

5/21/08, 4:29 PM

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