Mga app ng Google
Pangunahing menu

Post a Comment On: Steve Sailer: iSteve

"Evaluating teachers on value-added test scores: the Regression toward the Mean problem"

13 Comments -

1 – 13 of 13
Anonymous anony-mouse said...

I think what society really needs are tests to find out what makes a good blogger (or blog commenter).

1/17/10, 8:02 PM

Blogger David said...

anony-mouse, ask Hillary Clinton who makes a good blogger/commenter. Some years ago she was blithering about society's need for gooberment "gateways" to the net, so she probably has some ideas.

1/17/10, 8:58 PM

Anonymous jody said...

"Can sending star teachers into slum schools close the racial gap in school achievement?"

it can definitely improve the performance of the students from the worst parts of town. this is what my cousin does for teach for america. i mentioned her before. she has an undergrad in math from UVA and a masters in education from columbia. she's been working for teach for america for about 6 years. she taught for about 4 years, but now runs one of the entire city wide operations.

i also mentioned one of my best friends from high school, one of the most natural math guys i had ever met, 800 on the math SAT and 5 on the AP calculus BC exam, et cetera. he is a christian nutjob, and decided it was his duty to help the less fortunate by becoming a math teacher in philadelphia high schools. i don't think he helped them. he quit after 1 year.

1/17/10, 9:46 PM

Anonymous Mitch said...

All of these value added discussions are geared towards elementary school. You can't do value added calculations in high school math, history, or science.

Incidentally, I remember reading a report that evaluated a state's educational results--North Carolina, I think?--and determined that moving the best teachers to the worst schools would lower good student scores more than it would raise poor student scores. Not a good trade at all.

1/18/10, 12:53 AM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

Would you consider a value added system valid when the test devised in middle school is written by a different company than the one that writes th one in high school, and then compared to each other? That's what's happening in my state.

1/18/10, 4:23 AM

Blogger Polistra said...

Very interesting point. Most biological variables are logarithmic. As the physical input increases linearly, the bio response expands quickly then asymptotes toward an unbreakable ceiling.

In the simpler sorts of biological measurements like vision and hearing, this log-ness is taken into account.

Perhaps you could develop a decibel-like scale for intellectual development? Call it the deciWatson, which would partner up nicely with the Bel and would also salute a later Watson who was persecuted for his intelligence....

1/18/10, 7:09 AM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

I have been in this situation in terms of teaching ESL students. A teacher definitely wants the kids from the lower performing teacher because the curriculum is so repetitive that most everything is retaught. If a kid scores low just because he wasn't taught, he hasn't lost the ability to learn, so as soon as you teach him, he will get it. I have had kids grow 2-4 years in a single year in their reading level. They were middle school with limited English, but pretty bright so they could go from a grade 1.5 reading level to level 3.5 or even level 5.5 in a year. We always expected more than a year of growth per year because it was ESL.

The only fair way to evaluate teachers based on student performance is to compare the students' IQ's to their performance. Every special ed dept. has a chart that has expected achievement test values based on IQ to see whether kids qualify for special ed. A teacher's entire student group scores could be averaged and compared to their group IQ average. Effectiveness is then based on how well students perform based on their abilities.

1/18/10, 7:57 AM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

Steve, I normally give you the benefit of the doubt but this model is completely made-up. Unless there's research to show that learning actually works this way, this post is kind of like arguing whether Green Lantern could beat up Darth Vader.

1/18/10, 9:03 AM

Blogger The Outsider said...

Are you sure that "regression toward the mean" is really the phenomenon you're describing? I think of RTM as what happens when you randomly sample from a population - the more extreme a sample is, the less likely it is that the next sample will be more extreme.

What you're describing seems to be something like "decay toward the mean." Is this a distinction with a difference? Maybe. You're saying that although the students' test scores at the end of each year are an accurate measure of their actual ability, but that the gap between their actual ability and the mean shrinks with time. RTM could occur even if there were no shrinkage; but it would be caused by variations among the samples of students tested, not changes in their actual ability.

1/18/10, 9:30 AM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

I think what society really needs are tests to find out what makes a good blogger (or blog commenter).

Don't call us, we'll call you.

1/18/10, 9:40 AM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

This not being a Mao style state I wonder about this notion of assigning teachers, star or not, to wherever some bureaucrat decides. Don't the teachers themselves have some ideas where they want to work?Or are they just pawns to be moved around according to the latest new great idea? Has anyone even considered that they may not want to work in the ghetto? Also, I've wondered throughout the years about the results to be had if these star teachers were to teach white students. All the resources gobbled up by trying to close one gap or another might have been better utilized to improve the performance of white students who would give a better return on the dollar. Most poor people in the USA are white, let's do something for them for once.

1/18/10, 9:50 AM

Anonymous josh said...

Re jody: I cant imagine why a "nutjob" white Christian who is a natural at math would have any problems in the black/PuertoRican/Dominican high schools. Nope. I cant.

1/18/10, 2:46 PM

Blogger albertosaurus said...

When I was still in High School I read a multiple regression study of college outcomes done by the National Merit Scholarship people. They studied the question of which inputs accounted for the outputs of a college education. The answer was simply the quality of the students. Teaching didn't matter.

They found for example that Harvard graduates did very well on achievement tests but the only factor they could identify as contributing to that result was the scores of entering students on aptitude tests. Harvard had famous professors, excellent labs, and small class sizes. None of those showed up as a contributing dependant variable. The only thing that mattered were the test scores of the entering freshmen.

It's hard to accept if you are a teacher but there is a lot of evidence that teaching quality just doesn't matter. I admit that I have hardly read anything about education in the half century since I first read that study. Maybe things have changed - but I don't think so.

I have taught a lot of classes (mostly adults at night )in those fifty years and I have an insight.

I was at one time a star teacher. I was interesting, informed and enthusiastic. I motivated the students and they responded by learning. I was great - for about three years. Alas I taught statistics for five years. By the end of the fifth year of teaching statistics I was as bad as any college teacher I had ever had. I was boring and dull - all the student assessments said so. The college suggested that I not come back. I agreed.

That same sort of arc occurred again with other subjects - the first time a taught a subject I was a poor teacher because I didn't rally know the subject very well. The next time I taught that class I was better but after four or five times I was so bored that I stunk.

I could be a star teacher for about three years. I kept switching subjects to avoid going stale. I find it hard to believe that anyone can be a star teacher on a long term basis.

1/19/10, 9:44 AM

Comments are moderated, at whim.
You can use some HTML tags, such as <b>, <i>, <a>

Comment moderation has been enabled. All comments must be approved by the blog author.

You will be asked to sign in after submitting your comment.
OpenID LiveJournal WordPress TypePad AOL