To act legally and morally, you shouldn't even draw your gun until you're sure you have just cause to use it. That's because you are in fear for your life or serious harm from the actions of another. Then, actually use the gun. If you simply draw your gun and threaten another person with it or just point the muzzle toward another person, you can be charged with assault, perhaps successfully.
August 18, 2015 at 9:56 AM
Uncle Elmo said...
"That's why I hate comin' down here, all you cracker mutherf-ckers got guns."
That works out well, Mike. Maybe thanks to his experience with you, he will stay home in Chicago, where we all know NOBODY has a gun (except all the culls that don't know how to use them responsibly, including the 50 Aldermen [who are all Democrats]).
August 18, 2015 at 10:30 AM
Anonymous said...
Open carry to me is about sending a message to tyrants by reminding them that we have a 2nd amendment and why.
I prefer to protect myself from everyday thugs with a concealed handgun but on the days when I stand on the green against tyranny; it is & will be with a very open carry long gun, I want them to understand the consequences for their actions.
However for anyone else carrying open every day, more power to you don't ya know!
August 18, 2015 at 10:58 AM
Anonymous said...
Controllers have lost the carry - no carry argument. It IS a right to carry, period. They know they have lost that argument. This open versus concealed "debate" is happening for one reason and one reason alone. The controllers KNOW that "case law" has OPEN carry set AS that right, with concealed carry as a PERMISSION! They want the RIGHT demonized and criminalized AND they want control over the permission. To them, it the best they can hope for on the control front in the post Heller/McDonald case law world.
The gun rights crowd should ATTACK on a UNITED front in this way - end the pathetic notion that concealed carry is a permission, setting open and concealed carry as equals, as the same right, and then the open versus concealed will turn into just another 9mm versus 45 debate has between gun lovers. When we are smart enough to stop taking the controllers bait, when we stop letting them frame the debate on their terms, we will finally end this bogus problem.
August 18, 2015 at 11:14 AM
Anonymous said...
Once upon a time hypothetically After Hurricane Irene blew ashore large sections of New Haven CT lost power for more than 3 days. A small business owner had a location in a liquor plaza on the edge of some truly unfriendly neighborhoods. With the generator cranking and floodlights on they were less attractive for looting than the rest of the area, but nonetheless were tested 3x that night. 2 multi vehicle and one foot patrol. Each time it was fairly clear that they wanted to see if we would put up an armed fight and that we were in fact well armed. We were and they decided to find easier targets. BTW the state patrol that rolled through at 1am and gave us their cell phone direct was much appreciated. The stuff that went down south of our position was never reported in the news. Stabbings, shootings, home invasions etc. The hood went wild that night but no one ever heard about that.
August 18, 2015 at 12:18 PM
Galaxie_Man said...
Believe it or not, it is still legal by default (because it is not prohibited by law) in Kommiecticut, but I only do it in rare circumstances. Mostly on my property and while out in the woods. The upside to me is that if someone accidentally caught a glimpse of my firearm, or it printed through my clothing, I could not be prosecuted for open carry. I would certainly go through a bunch of legal headaches, but at the end of the day all charges would be dismissed.
August 18, 2015 at 12:52 PM
Anonymous said...
Yup, i to am a good crack'a. This Metro Trash should just stay in there dumps!!!
I suppose a good balance would be "never open carry without a concealed backup".
Then again, that can get into legal issues. It shouldn't, but it does.
August 18, 2015 at 2:05 PM
ExGeeEye said...
Slightly OT, I want to get a couple of T-shirts with "Cracker" or Cracka" on em in big giant letters. Rub it in some faces.
August 18, 2015 at 3:38 PM
Anonymous said...
My only disagreement is that had you been carrying openly from the start, that predator might well have just attacked more quickly and directly, going for the gun. You kept him off balance and uncertain by remaining cool and confident while you maneuvered for more firepower. I agree with the linked story's position that one should never advertise that they are armed. Not only do you lose the element of surprise, you can make yourself a target unnecessarily. Being prepared to defend yourself and those around you isn't worth much, if you get taken out before you even know anything is going down. I've been carrying pretty consistently since the late 70's, until the last decade, relying on my 2nd, 4th, and 5th Amendment rights and stealth. I've been licensed about a decade.
The only time I've actually had to go for a weapon was when I was being stalked, while walking to my apartment in Baltimore late one night. In those days, I carried in a book bag (I was 19, so was packing a Ruger Old Army, since I couldn't acquire a modern pistol for 2 more years). The predator was warded off by me just reaching into the bag and giving him a target acquisition look. Of course, in B'more then, as now, open carry wasn't an option.
There was a case in Richmond last year - a man in a convenience store was jumped by two young thugs, and shot to death with his own gun. He had a Va CHP but decided to open carry that day. The thugs went on to rob another business with the stolen gun. It was probably not their first rodeo. BTW, the victim (in his 50s) was African-American, as were his killers. A retention holster might have helped, but it was 2 young men against one older man in a surprise attack in a cramped space. I wonder if they hadn't seen the victim's gun whether there would have been an attack. After reading about this case, I abandoned any idea of open carry, though I support it for those who have made a different decision.
I think this idiot is, or was, far more blessed...at least on the day of your encounter than he could have been. I will also grant you, that as far as his experiences "down here" with all of these "cracker motherfu**ers" with guns, he should know there are many others of various ethnic backgrounds who would have gladly treated him similarly.
August 18, 2015 at 5:13 PM
FedUp said...
1. I fantasize about getting the drop on somebody who just ambushed me.
2. I don't like drawing attention to myself.
3. See #1. I think making it harder to get to my gun gives me the upper hand.
4. See #2.
5. I think OC attracts attacks instead of preventing them. This is why police officers always CC when on duty.
I think we can distill the five reasons down to: "I don't like drawing attention to myself."
August 18, 2015 at 6:22 PM
crazy2medic said...
Every State has different laws in this regard, know your state law backwards and forward, My State just recently passed open carry and it goes into effect Jan 1st, I will carry both open and concealed as circumstances and weather dictate, the whole element of surprise is a non arguement, few people even pay attention to their surroundings, I am never in condition white unless I'm asleep (just try and slip past 4 big dogs) at home and especially in public I threat scan constantly, if you carry a gun you can never be complacent!
August 18, 2015 at 7:48 PM
Anonymous said...
john wesley hardin, bill hickock,pat garret. all open carriers, all shot in the back. that's why I carry concealed
August 18, 2015 at 9:10 PM
Anonymous said...
Open carry requires much greater situational awareness so that you are aware of predator scrutiny much earlier in the process. Not that you should not have SA at all times, but....
Blending in is better.
August 18, 2015 at 9:40 PM
Anonymous said...
Your biggest mistake today, is assuming he can be educated.
August 18, 2015 at 9:41 PM
Miles said...
"...and yet if you draw from concealment on an "unarmed" man (even if he's twice your size and a third of your years, even if you warn him you are armed beforehand as he approaches uttering threats to kill you) it represents an escalation that you will later have to explain, especially if you shoot him."
1 You're going to have to explain to a police homicide investigator and prosecutor why you shot someone anyway. All homicides (some are murder/manslaughter - unjustified - some are justified - self defense) are investigated, which means you will eventually be talking to the man, even with your attorney present.
2 If a person has not learned the principles of self-defense, including that of "disparity of force", especially people who are physically disabled, they need to spend a few $$ and some time with a criminal defense lawyer (and put him on retainer) to understand what to say and how to say it and what not to say and how not to say it to the authorities.
I understand the political component of open carry. Personally, I don't care whether someone OCs or CCs. It's their business not mine. But OC also tells me and everyone else, definitely, who's carrying. Is that wise? That's for each person to decide for themselves.
Now me? Me and mine CC, all the time. It's a tactical decision. I also CC edged and impact weapons that are considered deadly weapons in my state. If some miscreant decides I look like a easy meal, too bad for him.
The rest, any person of at least average intelligence can figure out.
More to your point, I think I'd prefer "Cracka" over "Cracker." Much as another common racial term ending in "-er" is said to be lessend by ending the word in "-a" or "-ah," it might chap a few fewer cheeks than otherwise.
I got into a halfass fight once in The Club after being called a Cracker once. Started a lifelong friendship with the man who kept me from tearing into the knucklehead, as Bomber called him.
I guess I just wasn't supposed to kill anybody that night. Lucky everybody who was there.
CC with cute little pistols like G42 or a hammerless revolver, OC with a full-sized hand gun in a retention holster. Big pistol gets out and has a space convenient to reach while sitting in a vehicle. With a backpack, different still.
As far as 'drawing attention", you have a car with a license plate. Cops know who you are and criminals want your car (possible you and contents). "Incognito" is worthless and stinking, of no value, trash needing removal. Blending, not people. Might as well have a pearl-handled 8" barrel gold-plated Super-Blackhawk in .44Mag shining away on your hip!
Pistols are cash-valuable, even if a thug was uninclined to do another crime with it. This is why it's bad policy to make employees leave weapons in cars. A safe and secure weapon is attached to a good reliable person. CC or OC or both.
August 19, 2015 at 4:09 PM
CzarChasmIII said...
I open carry because I like the "element of surprise" too, just like the concealed carriers. I like that there's a potential that someone sizing me up as their next victim will be so surprised to see my OC'ed weapon that they'll pass me by in search of easier targets without ever even knowing the deterrence for doing nothing more bold than exercising my God-given rights in front of God and everybody worked as I intended it to.
I like that my draw, especially during colder months, is significantly quicker from in the open than from under cover. I carry away from home just exactly as I carry, practice and train at home, so no extra muscle-memory to develop between practicing/training with my holster on my hip, and just going about my business in town.
I once said on a gun forum several years ago that even if OC wasn't made harder here in AL because of cops always having the Catch 22 of slapping a disorderly conduct charge on you for doing it even though it was *technically* legal here all along, that I would still choose to conceal, mostly for the same reason mentioned by others, that I didn't want to draw attention to myself. Since AL changed the disorderly conduct statute to prohibit cops from using only the visible gun as RAS though, I have intentionally drawn attention to myself by OC'ing. There is a difference though. I still am not 100% comfortable with attention from the public, and I do not enjoy making the hoplophobes uncomfortable either. I do, however, love the idea that I might draw attention to my weapon by a victimizer looking for an easy mark, and he may decide not to go for someone who is equipped to equalize whatever violent encounter he's willing to foist on someone. He may decide to go ahead too, that is certainly a possibility, but one thing I have figured out over the last two years since AL made it safer from cops to OC, is that exactly zero potential for deterrence exists if my weapon is out of sight. "Blending in" to look like every other defenseless mark just doesn't seem like good tactics to me anymore.
CzarChasmIII
August 19, 2015 at 5:01 PM
Anonymous said...
Dudes lucky he didn't do that to another black dude......he would be dead right now..You know they kill one another for being "dissed" and for lesser reasons...It demonstrates remarkable restraint that the carrier didn't shoot him....These senseless black on black homicdes happen ALL THE TIME in Louisville, now at a rate of 2 per night it seems...B;ack on Black crimes that later turns into Cop killing Black dude while he is thugging at the cops(justifiably)....Sign Me, Neal Jensen
August 20, 2015 at 11:11 AM
Anonymous said...
Ex Gee Eye - My husband has a ball cap that reads "Whitey's Tire" on the front. Will that do?.. LOL.. All kidding aside, after living in NYS all my life, and the only way I've ever "carried" was in a handbag totally illegally (no permit, or anything else) i personally can't wait to move out to Montana and carry whatever the hell I want right on my hip. I believe that's the way a "Freeman" ( or "Freewoman") was meant to live to carry their sword, or in our times a pistol, right on their hip. Historically, only a slave was forced to live disarmed or have to hide their weapon for any reason.
August 20, 2015 at 1:57 PM
"I maintain the upper hand while carrying concealed."
Not always true. Some situations escalate, and I've been in one myself, simply because the threat doesn't believe you are armed, you look like easy prey to them and yet if you draw from concealment on an "unarmed" man (even if he's twice your size and a third of your years, even if you warn him you are armed beforehand as he approaches uttering threats to kill you) it represents an escalation that you will later have to explain, especially if you shoot him. In such a case, a .45 openly displayed on the hip would have prevented that threat more effectively than the .380 in my pocket that he didn't believe that I had (out of stupidity or brain addling by drugs -- in my case it was both of those combined with the fact that he was from inner city Chicago down in Alabama for Christmas and he didn't understand that the rules down here about firearms are far different than in that socialist paradise -- and the difference almost got him killed). My crime, by the way, was that I had "disrespected his ride" by passing his parked car too close as I pulled into the gas station. It wasn't until I concluded that .380 XTPs might not stop such a drug-soaked bruiser and I went around the side of the car to fetch my .45 out of my man bag to tuck in my belt that his girlfriend began to scream, "He's got a gun! He's got a gun!" No shit, lady, I had two of them the whole time. But one was in my pocket ready to go and the other in the car. Had he advanced just one more inch (as it was I let him get too close for he was within five feet although there was a gas hose between us) before I held up my left hand in warning with my right in my pocket ready to draw, he would have received 7 rounds of .380 Zombie loads center chest. Again, he was too close when I told him to stop or I would shoot. He didn't believe I was armed, but he stopped advancing just on the uncertainty. Once the .45 came out, he backed away, still screaming threats and imprecations about my mother, but finally concluding with "That's why I hate comin' down here, all you cracker mutherf-ckers got guns." So, I was able, finally, to educate him without killing him.
""5 Reasons I Will Never Open Carry.""
24 Comments -
To act legally and morally, you shouldn't even draw your gun until you're sure you have just cause to use it. That's because you are in fear for your life or serious harm from the actions of another. Then, actually use the gun. If you simply draw your gun and threaten another person with it or just point the muzzle toward another person, you can be charged with assault, perhaps successfully.
August 18, 2015 at 9:56 AM
"That's why I hate comin' down here, all you cracker mutherf-ckers got guns."
That works out well, Mike. Maybe thanks to his experience with you, he will stay home in Chicago, where we all know NOBODY has a gun (except all the culls that don't know how to use them responsibly, including the 50 Aldermen [who are all Democrats]).
August 18, 2015 at 10:30 AM
Open carry to me is about sending a message to tyrants by reminding them that we have a 2nd amendment and why.
I prefer to protect myself from everyday thugs with a concealed handgun but on the days when I stand on the green against tyranny; it is & will be with a very open carry long gun, I want them to understand the consequences for their actions.
However for anyone else carrying open every day, more power to you don't ya know!
August 18, 2015 at 10:58 AM
Controllers have lost the carry - no carry argument. It IS a right to carry, period. They know they have lost that argument. This open versus concealed "debate" is happening for one reason and one reason alone. The controllers KNOW that "case law" has OPEN carry set AS that right, with concealed carry as a PERMISSION! They want the RIGHT demonized and criminalized AND they want control over the permission. To them, it the best they can hope for on the control front in the post Heller/McDonald case law world.
The gun rights crowd should ATTACK on a UNITED front in this way - end the pathetic notion that concealed carry is a permission, setting open and concealed carry as equals, as the same right, and then the open versus concealed will turn into just another 9mm versus 45 debate has between gun lovers. When we are smart enough to stop taking the controllers bait, when we stop letting them frame the debate on their terms, we will finally end this bogus problem.
August 18, 2015 at 11:14 AM
Once upon a time hypothetically After Hurricane Irene blew ashore large sections of New Haven CT lost power for more than 3 days. A small business owner had a location in a liquor plaza on the edge of some truly unfriendly neighborhoods. With the generator cranking and floodlights on they were less attractive for looting than the rest of the area, but nonetheless were tested 3x that night. 2 multi vehicle and one foot patrol. Each time it was fairly clear that they wanted to see if we would put up an armed fight and that we were in fact well armed. We were and they decided to find easier targets. BTW the state patrol that rolled through at 1am and gave us their cell phone direct was much appreciated. The stuff that went down south of our position was never reported in the news. Stabbings, shootings, home invasions etc. The hood went wild that night but no one ever heard about that.
August 18, 2015 at 12:18 PM
Believe it or not, it is still legal by default (because it is not prohibited by law) in Kommiecticut, but I only do it in rare circumstances. Mostly on my property and while out in the woods. The upside to me is that if someone accidentally caught a glimpse of my firearm, or it printed through my clothing, I could not be prosecuted for open carry. I would certainly go through a bunch of legal headaches, but at the end of the day all charges would be dismissed.
August 18, 2015 at 12:52 PM
Yup, i to am a good crack'a.
This Metro Trash should just stay in there dumps!!!
August 18, 2015 at 12:53 PM
I suppose a good balance would be "never open carry without a concealed backup".
Then again, that can get into legal issues. It shouldn't, but it does.
August 18, 2015 at 2:05 PM
Slightly OT, I want to get a couple of T-shirts with "Cracker" or Cracka" on em in big giant letters. Rub it in some faces.
August 18, 2015 at 3:38 PM
My only disagreement is that had you been carrying openly from the start, that predator might well have just attacked more quickly and directly, going for the gun. You kept him off balance and uncertain by remaining cool and confident while you maneuvered for more firepower. I agree with the linked story's position that one should never advertise that they are armed. Not only do you lose the element of surprise, you can make yourself a target unnecessarily. Being prepared to defend yourself and those around you isn't worth much, if you get taken out before you even know anything is going down. I've been carrying pretty consistently since the late 70's, until the last decade, relying on my 2nd, 4th, and 5th Amendment rights and stealth. I've been licensed about a decade.
The only time I've actually had to go for a weapon was when I was being stalked, while walking to my apartment in Baltimore late one night. In those days, I carried in a book bag (I was 19, so was packing a Ruger Old Army, since I couldn't acquire a modern pistol for 2 more years). The predator was warded off by me just reaching into the bag and giving him a target acquisition look. Of course, in B'more then, as now, open carry wasn't an option.
August 18, 2015 at 4:11 PM
There was a case in Richmond last year - a man in a convenience store was jumped by two young thugs, and shot to death with his own gun. He had a Va CHP but decided to open carry that day. The thugs went on to rob another business with the stolen gun. It was probably not their first rodeo. BTW, the victim (in his 50s) was African-American, as were his killers. A retention holster might have helped, but it was 2 young men against one older man in a surprise attack in a cramped space. I wonder if they hadn't seen the victim's gun whether there would have been an attack. After reading about this case, I abandoned any idea of open carry, though I support it for those who have made a different decision.
August 18, 2015 at 4:55 PM
I think this idiot is, or was, far more blessed...at least on the day of your encounter than he could have been. I will also grant you, that as far as his experiences "down here" with all of these "cracker motherfu**ers" with guns, he should know there are many others of various ethnic backgrounds who would have gladly treated him similarly.
August 18, 2015 at 5:13 PM
1. I fantasize about getting the drop on somebody who just ambushed me.
2. I don't like drawing attention to myself.
3. See #1. I think making it harder to get to my gun gives me the upper hand.
4. See #2.
5. I think OC attracts attacks instead of preventing them. This is why police officers always CC when on duty.
I think we can distill the five reasons down to:
"I don't like drawing attention to myself."
August 18, 2015 at 6:22 PM
Every State has different laws in this regard, know your state law backwards and forward, My State just recently passed open carry and it goes into effect Jan 1st, I will carry both open and concealed as circumstances and weather dictate, the whole element of surprise is a non arguement, few people even pay attention to their surroundings, I am never in condition white unless I'm asleep (just try and slip past 4 big dogs) at home and especially in public I threat scan constantly, if you carry a gun you can never be complacent!
August 18, 2015 at 7:48 PM
john wesley hardin, bill hickock,pat garret. all open carriers, all shot in the back. that's why I carry concealed
August 18, 2015 at 9:10 PM
Open carry requires much greater situational awareness so that you are aware of predator scrutiny much earlier in the process. Not that you should not have SA at all times, but....
Blending in is better.
August 18, 2015 at 9:40 PM
Your biggest mistake today, is assuming he can be educated.
August 18, 2015 at 9:41 PM
"...and yet if you draw from concealment on an "unarmed" man (even if he's twice your size and a third of your years, even if you warn him you are armed beforehand as he approaches uttering threats to kill you) it represents an escalation that you will later have to explain, especially if you shoot him."
1 You're going to have to explain to a police homicide investigator and prosecutor why you shot someone anyway. All homicides (some are murder/manslaughter - unjustified - some are justified - self defense) are investigated, which means you will eventually be talking to the man, even with your attorney present.
2 If a person has not learned the principles of self-defense, including that of "disparity of force", especially people who are physically disabled, they need to spend a few $$ and some time with a criminal defense lawyer (and put him on retainer) to understand what to say and how to say it and what not to say and how not to say it to the authorities.
I understand the political component of open carry. Personally, I don't care whether someone OCs or CCs. It's their business not mine. But OC also tells me and everyone else, definitely, who's carrying. Is that wise? That's for each person to decide for themselves.
Now me? Me and mine CC, all the time. It's a tactical decision. I also CC edged and impact weapons that are considered deadly weapons in my state. If some miscreant decides I look like a easy meal, too bad for him.
The rest, any person of at least average intelligence can figure out.
August 18, 2015 at 9:51 PM
Oh great.....Mr. Magoo with a gun.
August 19, 2015 at 2:04 PM
XGI, did you go to SIU-C?
More to your point, I think I'd prefer "Cracka" over "Cracker." Much as another common racial term ending in "-er" is said to be lessend by ending the word in "-a" or "-ah," it might chap a few fewer cheeks than otherwise.
I got into a halfass fight once in The Club after being called a Cracker once. Started a lifelong friendship with the man who kept me from tearing into the knucklehead, as Bomber called him.
I guess I just wasn't supposed to kill anybody that night. Lucky everybody who was there.
August 19, 2015 at 3:59 PM
CC with cute little pistols like G42 or a hammerless revolver, OC with a full-sized hand gun in a retention holster. Big pistol gets out and has a space convenient to reach while sitting in a vehicle. With a backpack, different still.
As far as 'drawing attention", you have a car with a license plate. Cops know who you are and criminals want your car (possible you and contents). "Incognito" is worthless and stinking, of no value, trash needing removal. Blending, not people. Might as well have a pearl-handled 8" barrel gold-plated Super-Blackhawk in .44Mag shining away on your hip!
Pistols are cash-valuable, even if a thug was uninclined to do another crime with it. This is why it's bad policy to make employees leave weapons in cars. A safe and secure weapon is attached to a good reliable person. CC or OC or both.
August 19, 2015 at 4:09 PM
I open carry because I like the "element of surprise" too, just like the concealed carriers. I like that there's a potential that someone sizing me up as their next victim will be so surprised to see my OC'ed weapon that they'll pass me by in search of easier targets without ever even knowing the deterrence for doing nothing more bold than exercising my God-given rights in front of God and everybody worked as I intended it to.
I like that my draw, especially during colder months, is significantly quicker from in the open than from under cover. I carry away from home just exactly as I carry, practice and train at home, so no extra muscle-memory to develop between practicing/training with my holster on my hip, and just going about my business in town.
I once said on a gun forum several years ago that even if OC wasn't made harder here in AL because of cops always having the Catch 22 of slapping a disorderly conduct charge on you for doing it even though it was *technically* legal here all along, that I would still choose to conceal, mostly for the same reason mentioned by others, that I didn't want to draw attention to myself. Since AL changed the disorderly conduct statute to prohibit cops from using only the visible gun as RAS though, I have intentionally drawn attention to myself by OC'ing. There is a difference though. I still am not 100% comfortable with attention from the public, and I do not enjoy making the hoplophobes uncomfortable either. I do, however, love the idea that I might draw attention to my weapon by a victimizer looking for an easy mark, and he may decide not to go for someone who is equipped to equalize whatever violent encounter he's willing to foist on someone. He may decide to go ahead too, that is certainly a possibility, but one thing I have figured out over the last two years since AL made it safer from cops to OC, is that exactly zero potential for deterrence exists if my weapon is out of sight. "Blending in" to look like every other defenseless mark just doesn't seem like good tactics to me anymore.
CzarChasmIII
August 19, 2015 at 5:01 PM
Dudes lucky he didn't do that to another black dude......he would be dead right now..You know they kill one another for being "dissed" and for lesser reasons...It demonstrates remarkable restraint that the carrier didn't shoot him....These senseless black on black homicdes happen ALL THE TIME in Louisville, now at a rate of 2 per night it seems...B;ack on Black crimes that later turns into Cop killing Black dude while he is thugging at the cops(justifiably)....Sign Me, Neal Jensen
August 20, 2015 at 11:11 AM
Ex Gee Eye - My husband has a ball cap that reads "Whitey's Tire" on the front. Will that do?.. LOL.. All kidding aside, after living in NYS all my life, and the only way I've ever "carried" was in a handbag totally illegally (no permit, or anything else) i personally can't wait to move out to Montana and carry whatever the hell I want right on my hip. I believe that's the way a "Freeman" ( or "Freewoman") was meant to live to carry their sword, or in our times a pistol, right on their hip. Historically, only a slave was forced to live disarmed or have to hide their weapon for any reason.
August 20, 2015 at 1:57 PM