Google apps
Main menu

Post a Comment On: Understanding Society

"Income inequalities and social ills"

5 Comments -

1 – 5 of 5
Blogger Frank de Libero said...

c. December 2009 I attended Wilkinson's presentation of "The Spirit Level" at UW, Seattle. It was an overflowing crowd. At the end of his presentation the response and questions were animated. But later when I read the book I was disappointed, esp. with the evidence. In the 2009 American printing of the book there were 24 charts with identified points and a significant tend line. As an analyst one of my criteria for a significant trend is that a major subset of the data will also show a trend. Twelve of the 24 charts, IMO, failed that test. There was also a 13th showing as I recall a mortality related outcome v. income inequality of the USA. It is clear from working the USA health data that the South is different than the rest: worse health outcomes; worse health behaviors. If you visually take southern data points out of that chart there's no trend. As I recall, for the 12 charts visually deleting 2-3 data obviate the trend. For example, randomly picking Fig 7.1 with an outcome of obesity, if you visually remove the USA and Japan, there's no trend.

There work doesn't convince me that inequality is a cancer on society. Lane Kenworthy among others isn't convinced either. He had a post c. Jan 2010 looking at data issues.

..Frank

July 4, 2011 at 3:35 PM

Blogger Dan Little said...

Frank, thanks for the comments and the mention of Lane Kenworthy's critique, which is here: http://lanekenworthy.net/2010/01/18/inequality-as-a-social-cancer/.

July 5, 2011 at 7:26 AM

Anonymous Misaki said...

"Even if we accept the point that reciprocity and mutual respect are key components of a society's health, there are other factors that undermine these besides economic inequality -- racism, ethnic hatred, sexism, and other kinds of "othering" besides income inequality."

A good example is religious discrimination in post-occupation Iraq. Shi'a–Sunni_relations#Iraq_War

Conflicts between groups are due to a refusal to compromise or an unstable situation. Anyway, for anyone wanting to move past the 'observation' phase toward a 'solution' phase, see this: http://pastebin.com/Q86Zhgs9

July 5, 2011 at 7:35 AM

Blogger AllanW said...

@ Frank;

Please forgive me if I've misunderstood your point but did you really say that you think a trend is significant if you take a subset of its data and it remains the same? Really?

I can understand if you don't want to be convinced by the data presented; I can understand if you find it disturbing to have preconceived notions challenged by new information but then just be honest about why you disagree rather than make up spurious reasons for not accepting the data. They're adults (Wilkinson and Pickett) they can accept people who don't want to follow the data.

But to reject their findings because they fail some informal, gut-level, irrational test you personally devise is ... well... irrational. The data they present is consistent, comprehensive and transparent (you can download the databases at their website) so please do not attempt to represent your disagreement with it in a rational manner.

You are free to disagree but 'as an analyst' you really should be aware that saying things like;

'It is clear from working the USA health data that the South is different than the rest: worse health outcomes; worse health behaviors. If you visually take southern data points out of that chart there's no trend. '

you represent yourself poorly in my opinion. Of course the trendlines change if you exclude substantial parts of the data!

Sorry if this seems to you a little abrupt but the book was published a few years ago and I'd have thought that by now we really should be moving-on to addressing the policy implications of these insights rather than attempting to criticise the data in a haphazard manner; it has been tested, shaken and rigorously attacked over the last three years and survived all assaults. Can we get on with making progress now, please?

July 5, 2011 at 8:01 AM

Blogger chatten said...

What I find a bit strange about the skepticism here in response to the idea that inequality is socially corrosive is that critics of this book don't acknowledge the force of the large amount of evidence that is presented in this book (and in other books by Wilkinson and other researchers), which makes for a very strong case that high levels of inequality have some negative social effects, including on societal health. Yes, there are obviously other factors that unquestionablly would also have a negative effect on social conditions, such as discrimination, but this doesn't at all affect the main point here. And wouldn't we expect high levels of discrimination and inequality to be correlated? "The Spirit Level" (and other research on the health gradient) offers not only a plausible case that social conditions, including inequality, make a major contribution to societal health and well-being, but develop detailed causal pathways that can explain this observation. Merely to insist that inequality can't have the impact that Pickett and Wilkinson argue for without offering any alternative explanation for the masses of data they offer as evidence seems less a rational argument than a display of dogmatism.

July 5, 2011 at 10:43 PM

You can use some HTML tags, such as <b>, <i>, <a>

Comment moderation has been enabled. All comments must be approved by the blog author.

You will be asked to sign in after submitting your comment.
Please prove you're not a robot