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"David Graeber's reflections on money, debt, and violence"

15 Comments -

1 – 15 of 15
Blogger Brett said...

A Global Wipe-out of any and all debt would be a complete financial disaster. You'd effectively destroy the financial system, which would then create the biggest economic depression in history.

It wouldn't end there, either. The risk of it happening would result in interest rates remaining high compared to what they were before, like how interest rates from medieval bankers were very high in a period when rulers could and did default on their debts.

December 1, 2011 at 2:14 PM

Blogger Doc Merlin said...

"This is why I developed the concept of human economies: ones in which what is considered really important about human beings is the fact that they are each a unique nexus of relations with others -- therefore, that no one could ever be considered exactly equivalent to anything or anyone else. In a human economy, money is not a way of buying or trading human beings, but a way of expressing just how much one cannot do so. (207)"

This statement, is devoid of meaning.

December 1, 2011 at 9:25 PM

Blogger Dan Little said...

Hello, Doc Merlin,

I don't think the statement is devoid of meaning. A commodity economy depends upon the idea that objects are fully interchangeable; it doesn't matter whether you buy this loaf of bread or that loaf of bread. Therefore the commodity is defined by its price. Graeber's point is, basically, that in pre-state societies activities, objects, and persons are not treated in this abstract way, but are rather treated as concrete particulars with unique characteristics. Whether it's true or not, I can't say; but I think it's a meaningful idea.

December 1, 2011 at 9:29 PM

Anonymous Skip said...

Yeah, and i'm sure all of the poor people would be delighted to appreciate the finer qualities and uniqueness of a loaf of bread before they promptly starved to death because society destroyed the credit system and mass production.

This book seems to be typical bourgeois lefty utopian intellectualism. The kind of thing that only happy, wealthy and well fed westerners could ever have the luxury of considering.

But remember how dreamy and egalitarian everything was when society consisted of a teeming, squabbling, starving impoverished mess? People were treated as people, as individuals!

December 2, 2011 at 12:07 AM

Blogger russell1200 said...

Niall Ferguson in Cash Nexus pretty much said that the finance economy was created to fund war. So I think even he is in agreement there.

December 2, 2011 at 5:13 AM

Blogger Denis said...

"This is why I developed the concept of human economies.."

This not an attack on, or a suggested replacement for the commodity economy. Its an idea to encourage thinking out of the box. This is what intellectuals do.

December 2, 2011 at 11:24 AM

Anonymous sourcreamus said...

The idea of the Wizard of Oz as a parable of populism is not true. See this article http://www.halcyon.com/piglet/Populism.htm

December 2, 2011 at 3:59 PM

Blogger Dan Little said...

sourcreamus: Thanks very much for this link to the back story on the Wizard of Oz. I'm not sure it demonstrates that "the idea of W of O as a parable of populism is not true," though. What it seems to demonstrate is that there is now disagreement about the interpretation (contrary to Graeber's statement that "it is commonly agreed"), and that there is no longer compelling reason to believe that Baum was himself a populist. All that said -- it's a piece of literary interpretation, and it's intriguing. Wouldn't you agree?

December 2, 2011 at 6:16 PM

Blogger TGGP said...

I heard the same wizard of oz story in high school history class. Nobody made such arguments in Baum's time, it was invented much later. Sort of like arguments that Shakespeare wasn't Shakespeare (the earlier proposed alternative was Francis Bacon, which nobody believes today).

December 2, 2011 at 8:11 PM

Blogger Tom Hickey said...

Graeber's investigation of the origin of money in debt is a contribution to a long standing dispute about this in economics. The classical economists accepted the barter account, which was elaborated by Carl Menger, and popularized by the Robinson Crusoe-Friday story told in Econ 101.

In opposition to the barter theory, Georg Friedrich Knapp proposed the state theory of money, aka chartalism, in which money is the state's liability, which is accepted by the public in that the state creates tax liabilities that can only be satisfied in its money. Therefore, the public must obtain state money to satisfy their tax obligations and in doing so they transfer goods and services to the state in exchange for the state's money.

This theory was elaborated by Alfred Mitchell-Innes as the credit theory of money. It has been picked up by contemporary neo-chartalists and developed as Modern Monetary Theory.

Modern Monetary Theory is a Post Keynesian macroeconomic theory based on a description of the monetary system. This is significant because other contemporary macro theories are based on a gold standard views of monetary economics, whereas the US has not been on the gold standard since 1933, and the global monetary system has been off gold since Nixon closed the gold window in 1971.

So, yes, Graeber's work is quite significant to the current economic debate, especially since the financial crisis and the inability of mainstream economics to foresee, explain, resolve it, and prevent a recurrence. Modern Monetary accomplishes all of these, based on a correct understanding of monetary theory.

Graeber provides historical evidence corroborating this view and contradicting the mainstream view that is hold the world back from crisis resolution.

December 3, 2011 at 9:38 PM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

"But remember how dreamy and egalitarian everything was when society consisted of a teeming, squabbling, starving impoverished mess?"


yeah. unlike, say....uuuuhhhh....now.

December 14, 2011 at 5:13 AM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

It seems as though non-market societies are treated as some kind of ideal. But non-market transaction based on reciprocity have enormous problems. I know this because I visit my relatives in India. They live in a market society but one in which non-market transactions (having relatives over, visiting people, parties, cooking food for others, etc) are important. Generally family infighting is acrimonius and very common. People fight over small problems and hold grudges for long periods of time. There is a very acute sense of fairness..too acute. Its really quite easily to slight someone and often you don't even know it. People have to parse what others say to figure out their behaviour. A lot of time is wasted thinking about this. Jealously and envy are normal and ubiquitous.

Its is not some nirvana. Its a society of pettiness and spite. But its also a society where people have a lot of very close relationships.

September 15, 2012 at 12:37 PM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

"One line of thought is perfectly clear in the book: Graeber wants to demolish the myth of the truck-and-barter origins of money. This is the standard story within classical and neoclassical economics. But Graeber thinks it is a complete fiction...The problem is there's no evidence that it ever happened, and an enormous amount of evidence suggesting that it did not"

So far neither you nor Graeber has presented a shred of evidence against the barter origins of money. The argument appears to be that because it was never observed in tribal societies therefore money didn't evolve from barter. BUT most tribal societies never evolved into States. The evolution of the State itself is unusual so why shouldn't its origins be exceptional. For most of history most people did not live in States. The evolution of the State was an exceptional circumstance so why should we believe it evolved from something common?

In addition there are indications that barter and even commodity money is quite a common phenemenon when money systems break down such as:

1) use of cigarettes as money in concentration camps
2) extensive barter in communist countries
3) widespread existence of commodity money systems.


I don't get why the commodity and barter theory has been so clearly disproven. It hasn't.

September 15, 2012 at 3:06 PM

Blogger Unknown said...

Thanks.

December 5, 2012 at 4:35 PM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

you're asking to prove a negative; additionally graeber addresses you by pointing out that barter is only ever observed among populations that already had a monetary system that has collapsed or is unuseable

January 25, 2013 at 2:17 PM

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