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Post a Comment On: Rany on the Royals

"Myers, Moral Hazard, and Moving On."

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Blogger kaut67 said...

This is a trade that assumes players are who they were or weren't in 2012.
Ervin Santana has to not be the player he was in 2012. Same for Hosmer and to a degree, Moose.
On the other hand, Shields and Escobar both have to play like its 2012.
Moore has made a huge gamble that he can tell you what year a player is in. Unfortunately, if this lineup plays like its 2012, the 2013 Royals aren't going to the playoffs.

December 25, 2012 at 2:35 AM

Blogger StJohn said...

Mentioning Ryan Dempster as a realistic option to front a playoff roster is crazy talk. Marcum? Jackson? These pitchers are "close" to Shields, but not close enough to beat other top pitchers in the playoffs.

You want to build a winner? You have to build a team that can win a playoff series. This team could do that. Now they just have to get there--even without the Messiah in RF.

December 25, 2012 at 3:57 AM

Blogger StJohn said...

Mentioning Ryan Dempster as a realistic option to front a playoff roster is crazy talk. Marcum? Jackson? These pitchers are "close" to Shields, but not close enough to beat other top pitchers in the playoffs.

You want to build a winner? You have to build a team that can win a playoff series. This team could do that. Now they just have to get there--even without the Messiah in RF.

December 25, 2012 at 3:59 AM

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December 25, 2012 at 8:20 AM

Blogger ArthurKC said...

All I want for Christmas is a pair of Google Glasses for the 2013 season with real-time spray charts and stats for Wil Myers so I can flip it on every time Francouer comes to the plate.

December 25, 2012 at 8:21 AM

Blogger jmcgowan said...

Your sentiments are the same ones that I, as a Cub fan, had when:
They hired Dusty Baker (I still remember Gary Huckabay extending his condolences to Kerry Wood and Mark Prior);
They signed Jacque Jones;
They signed Alfonso Soriano for the rest of the 21st century;
They traded the farm for Matt Garza.
I could go on, but you get the point. It's really tough when the team you love does things that you know, objectively, don't make sense. It's the curse of knowing, and thinking. Keep it up, though; it's worth it.

December 25, 2012 at 10:18 AM

Blogger Jack said...

Trading the farm for Matt Garza is the big one there-- in fact, I'd argue that was an even worse case of a GM succumbing to Moral Hazard. I wish there were a more delicate way of putting that, because I understand that by all accounts, Jim Hendry is an absolute class act, but if anything, that further proves that GMs are simply behaving rationally when, under certain circumstances, they pay a premium for wins in the near term, and that doesn't make them a bad, or immoral person.

But the 2011 Cubs probably stood even less a chance to make the playoffs than do the 2013 Royals. Granted, they didn't give up a talent like Wil Myers, but Hak-Ju Lee, and Chris Archer are still very good prospects, and Brandon Guyer may very well become a contributor in the big leagues. Robinson Chirinos, maybe not so much, but my point is, Jim Hendry paying the price for Matt Garza is about as good an example of Moral Hazard in MLB as you're likely to find.

December 25, 2012 at 10:27 AM

Blogger Jack said...

BTW-- excellent read, Rany. The passion you have for the Royals makes me hope they win some games in 2013, if only for your sake.

December 25, 2012 at 10:28 AM

Blogger Antonio. said...

I'd say you don't build a team to win a play off series. You build a team to get to the play offs. What happens then is a crapshoot.

December 25, 2012 at 12:15 PM

Blogger StJohn said...

The point is, you can field a team with 4 #3 pitchers and a good offense and probably win enough games against the bad teams to grab a playoff birth. However, what good is it if you are out classed by the other playoff teams and lose in three?

If you build a team that can match up with playoff rotations, you have a chance to be the recent versions of the Giants or the '85 Royals?

December 25, 2012 at 1:05 PM

Blogger Unknown said...

I was upset when Barry Sanders retired because I knew he had more in the tank. It was the first time I became aware of the publics insistance on being entertained. We hold people in contempt for choosing not to entertain us. Rany, I promise I won't do that to you. I enjoy your writing, but I know you don't owe me/us anything.

Your analysis of the trade is not wrong. We could have kept Myers and recreated Sheilds production (to some degree) with a free agent.

But, I have also been a Royals fan since I moved to KC in 1997. It just felt good to look at a projected rotation and not feel nauseous. And then it felt like you sucker punched us. Only you didn't because we knew pretty much how you felt beforehand. You were just being honest which is why most people enjoy your analysis.

But I have to be honest too. It felt like a little much. I (mis)posted this on your 2-word review: James Shields deserves better than you gave him. He deserves better than Rob Neyer gave him. (I think JoePos got it about right.)

We once traded Carlos Beltran for John Buck. OK, Mark Teahen was the key piece; but John Buck became the most valuable assest in that trade.

We once traded Jermaine Dye for Neifi Perez.

Those trades set the stage for the Royals to go on one of the worst stretches in baseball history. There simply is no comparison to what just happened.

I basically agree with your analysis, but I am on board with the trade because we have no choice and it COULD work. I'll be angry in retrospect, not in advance.

December 25, 2012 at 2:17 PM

Blogger Antonio. said...

The point is adding some talent to a 72-win team is going to bump you to a pretender, which is all you and the Royals are doing. Going halfway, which is what a team with Chen/Hoche/Frenchy/Getz is doing, defeats the purpose. There is a no-man's land in baseball and the Royals are in it. And Shields isnt' any more of a guarantee v Verlander/Hernandez than is Marcum or the other guys at which you scoff. Shields actually is barely enough to offset the difference between Myers/Frenchy, and maybe not even that.

December 25, 2012 at 10:12 PM

Blogger Antonio. said...

And those damned Giants had above average offense, no matter how dismissive people like to be of them.

December 25, 2012 at 10:13 PM

Blogger Mark said...

Welcome back, Rany--I was afraid you had quit. This entry is actually gracious as well as the usual thoughtful.

Antonio hits the proverbial nail with his snarky crack about "Chen/Hoche/Frenchy/Getz." But why is everyone assuming Frenchy will be in right when it's still December (and aren't we all a little weird to be writing about baseball on the 25th of December? OK, Rany has an out.) We all know Moore has contacted the Rockies and offered Hochevar to a team desperate for pitching, and apparently Dexter Fowler is in play. Obviously it will take more work and more than Hoch, but pick up Fowler and play either him or Lorenzo in right, and you can trade Frenchy to someone, surely, in a salary dump. So I'm just wondering why the lineup is in cement already.

December 25, 2012 at 10:37 PM

Blogger Antonio. said...

Until Dayton shows he knows better, why take that leap..?

December 26, 2012 at 2:52 AM

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December 26, 2012 at 9:17 AM

Blogger I'd like another... said...

1
P.S. Listening, begrudgingly, to multiple KC talk radio (self-described) fatties single you out at the leader for the opposition to the “RAH-RAH-SIS-BOOM-BAH, We’re going to win now” campain had me feeling quite cheated. When they diviate from the issue at hand to label the opposition, it usually means they just didn’t prepare enough material to fill the segment. (See what I did there, I labeled them fatties. Oh, the irony.)


December 26, 2012 at 9:23 AM

Blogger Charles Winters said...

I can't believe I am saying this but I am beginning to get a little tired of the 1985 Royals references here. I loved them as much as or more than anyone as I then lived with Cardinal fans at college in Rolla. Winning was just so sweet.

But it's BEEN LIKE 27 YEARS NOW.

What's worse is that I keep hearing the 1985 Royals as the examples of how one should build a champion team. It just IS NOT. Those Royals scored 687 runs and allowed 639. Those are not close to average stats for a team that wins its division - let alone goes and wins the World Series. The run differential of 48 typically would produce a team going about 85-77 or 86-76, not 91-71. They played in a weak division.

So, this year's Royals might wind up being as good as the 1985 Royals and come nowhere near the playoffs. If they outscore their opponents by 48 runs they will likely finish about 85-77 and finish 10 games back of the Tigers. So, if they over-perform their Pythag and go 91-71 they might easily still miss the playoffs by 5 or more games.

We need to stop comparing against the 1985 Royals and start comparing against the probability of the 2013 Tigers and 2013 White Sox and 2013 Indians and 2013 Twins. Rany seemed optimistic to me when he said we have about a 25% chance of winning the division. I see it being closer to 20% (up from about 10% pre-trade).

The problem - Hosmer, Moose et al could take a big step forward, the rotation could be as good as advertized and we might win 90 games and still miss. I'd be THRILLED at 90 wins. Do I think that is going to be good enough? I'd say that would win the division in maybe 40% of the possible scenarios.

To be clear favorites the projected wins really need to be 95. I just don't see anything like that.

December 26, 2012 at 9:47 AM

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December 26, 2012 at 10:03 AM

Blogger Phaedrus said...

Rany, you take yourself WAY too seriously.

December 26, 2012 at 10:03 AM

Blogger Charles Winters said...

Anyone out there think the Royals should sign Michael Bourn????

December 26, 2012 at 10:46 AM

Blogger Loserville said...

Ok, I hate the trade again...Thanks Rany

December 26, 2012 at 12:20 PM

Blogger thomasj19 said...

Thanks Rany, great analysis and maybe we can both be wrong and the Royals will finally win but I doubt it.

December 26, 2012 at 3:14 PM

Blogger Antonio. said...

Good comment on the '85 Royals. Great, the team overcame serious odds to win the Championship. Those odds are understated whenever that team is held up as some sort of saving grace. I understand why with rebuttal being "the point is to win the championship" and the longing of being a play off team. But it's also dismissive of the better '77 team, which had great balance of good hitting and slightly better pitching.

December 26, 2012 at 8:40 PM

Blogger Lark11 said...

Good read, as always, Rany. I do, however, have to question this point:

"You can't claim Hosmer and Moustakas and Perez are the biggest reasons why the Royals could go from 72 wins to the playoffs, without acknowledging that Myers was another big reason as well. Either you believe in young hitters or you don't. If the Royals were smart to trade Myers because he's not likely to pan out, then they were wrong for trading him because the young hitters they kept probably won't pan out either and they'll miss the playoffs anyway."

I don't see any reason why all "young hitters" should properly be lumped together. Why shouldn't each young hitter be judged on his individual merits? Why can't you believe in SOME young hitters and not others? Maybe the Royals, rightly or wrongly, don't believe in Myers as much as their other young hitters.

Unless I missed something, I don't think this premise holds up.

That said, I do think the trade was a mistake.

December 26, 2012 at 10:53 PM

Blogger Unknown said...

'Either you believe in young hitters or you don't." I don't agree. Good teams have scouting and analysis to help them distinguish gold from fool's gold. We just won't know for a couple of years which of Moustakas, Homer and Meyers is headed for a better career, but they aren't equal.

Teams may already have a better idea than independent analysts have. I heard Kevin Goldstein say that the public information about players is probably about 10% of what the industry has. When we see a divide between outside analysts and insiders, each group has its advantages.

December 26, 2012 at 11:25 PM

Blogger Lance said...

My hope is that James Shields toughness will permeate the entire pitching staff. I'd argue that the best teams have at least one tough guy starting pitcher leading by example. Matt Cain in San Francisco, Adam Wainwright in St Louis and of course Justin Verlander in Detroit. They rise to the occasion when they are challenged.They find a way to get outs when they don't have their best stuff. Kevin Appier kind of guys. Gil Meche had some of it too. They are the antithesis of a Luke Hochever. That kind of mindset can rub off in sports. Ray Lewis - Michael Jordan kind of toughness. And I think Wade Davis has a lot of that toughness too. My bold prediction is that some point in mid to late May, James Shields is going to pull Luke off to the side and say, 'Quit being a pu**y out there. You're playing scared. You've got the stuff. Go use it.' This will be a big turn around year for Luke.

December 27, 2012 at 2:52 AM

Blogger bjpatek said...

RJ,

To me, the most precise way to judge this trade will be the value WM brings to the Rays,(and vice versa)as opposed to whether JS helps the Royals make the playoffs.

If Myers is anything but a superstar, even if JS simply makes baseball fun on Sept 1st...then I'd argue the Royals received good, perhaps more, value.

Mirage or not.....2003 was EXCITING. It has value. ALOT of value. For me, anyway. Even a hint of being in a pennant race in Sept is something so rare for a Royals fan that it's worth a high risk, IMO.

I'm not saying that a more clever GM could not have done better. Even a dermatologist can construct scenarios that are superior. ;) But this is a risk I don't mind taking, as I've grown very weary of having to wait for next year.

December 27, 2012 at 9:42 AM

Blogger Monty said...

Rany, always enjoy reading your work. I believe most of the pitchers you mention carry the same risks as Shields and Davis. Wil Myers and the other prospects also carry risks. Will they realize their potential? Will they suffer career ending injuries? We have already seen varying degrees of success with prospects. My initial disappoint with trading Myers has been replaced with excitement over the coming season. I actually feel for the first time in years we can compete. I took my daughters to the All Star game festivities and long to take them to games where the crowd is excited about the game and not that games free item. I am glad to see the Royals trying to win, even though there is room for us all to disagree with some of the methods. Barring injuries this should be a much improved pitching staff. Now it is time for the position players to step it up, maybe we get lucky and Frenchy hits better since it is a contract year. Keep up the good work!

December 27, 2012 at 12:05 PM

Blogger Antonio. said...

Rany wasn't saying anything like what some have misread his comments to be. What he was saying that if you're going to make the point, "Well, he (Myers) is just a prospect and prospects bust..," then you have to make the same point about Hosmer, Moose, Perez and so forth. He was invalidating the point of "Myers is just a prospect, thus likely to fail".

December 27, 2012 at 9:05 PM

Blogger Lark11 said...

Antonio,

I'm not sure I can agree. I don't think that's what he was trying to say. If it was, then there are still two problems.

The first is the same as the current problem, substituting the word "prospect" in for "young hitter" doesn't change the underlying problem. It still doesn't make sense to paint all these players with the same brush. You can evaluate them individually and draw different conclusions on each. Regardless of which label you apply, it's still not an all or nothing proposition.

The second problem is that Hosmer, Moustakas, and Perez really AREN'T the same as Myers. The aforementioned three have had some measure of success at the MLB level. Myers hasn't even arrived yet. It's hard to argue that players who have had MLB success have the same risk of flaming out as a player who hasn't reached the majors yet.

At one point, Travis Snider was the 6th overall prospect in the minors. He had very good numbers at all levels of the minors and "age vs. level" on his side. Regardless, he was exposed at the MLB level and had to go back down to the minors to rework his swing. He's still trying to find MLB success. Admittedly, I would rate Myers over Snider, but it's still difficult to know what a prospect will do at the MLB level.

All that said, personally, I'd definitely take Myers over Moustakas and Perez. And, I'd probably take him over Hosmer, as Myers is probably the most complete hitter of the group.

Even so, I just don't think that particular section of Rany's argument holds up.

But, that's just my $.02!

Best,
Lark

December 27, 2012 at 10:59 PM

Blogger Antonio. said...

He's not the one that was painting them with the same brush.


Also, while they do have some measure of success which he does not have, they also have a larger measure of failure--more failure than success--which he also does not have. And when looking at where they do compare, Myers beats them all.

December 28, 2012 at 1:17 AM

Blogger Kris Alan Higdon said...

Rany, the problem with your analysis is you assume the Royals could just go out and sign a player like Marcum or any other pitcher. When was the last time the Royals signed a pitcher of Marcum's quality? If they were able to sign him, it would be at an extreme overpayment. Given what Liriano sign for this past week, it might cost the same $ for fewer years for him than Guthrie. And if they couldn't sign him, they go into a season with Ervin Santana or Guthrie as opening day starter.

Second, why does everyone ignore Myers high strike-out rate and low walk rate? Hosmer walked at a much greater rate in the minors and struck out much less. Baseball history is littered with players hitting for big power in the minors with high strike-out and low walk rate. Is Myers really that much different than Brandon Wood was at the same point in his career?

The real fear of this trade, the real way the Royals lose big is if Mike Montgomery turns it around. With any trade there is risk. The given risks in this trade for the Royals are that Myers becomes a superstar and that Shields injuries his arm and is never the same. But, if Myers becomes a superstar and Shields is a bad-ass the trade is a win for both. But if both those things happen AND Montgomery flourishes into a top starter, the Royals lose this trade horribly. There is nothing Shields can do to make up that ground. There is nothing Wade Davis, short of becoming a multiple time Cy Young winner, can do to make up that ground.

Finally, why are people so worried about 2015? Seriously. By the time 2015 rolls around the Royals farm system could have multiple players that make us forget all about Myers. By 2015 we could have Mondesi, Bubba, Cuthbert and Bonifacio ready to replace the guys we will be losing. Who knows what can happen by that time. Great pitching wins over great hitting. Having Myers on the 2015 team won't mean a thing if the team still had a rotation like that in 2012.

December 28, 2012 at 7:05 AM

Blogger Simon said...

Yo, Kobe beta than Jordan. -Rany.

December 28, 2012 at 9:41 AM

Blogger geoknows said...

Kris Alan -

Hosmer's minor league walk rate: 12.5%. Myers' minor league walk rate: 12.6%. Looks pretty similar to me.

December 28, 2012 at 11:02 AM

Blogger Simon said...

You did get greedy. Top "prospects" are hard to find Rany.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/cover/featured/10098/index.htm

2015? Give me a break.

December 28, 2012 at 12:11 PM

Blogger Charles Winters said...

Rany,
Do you think that Michael Bourn could put the Royals into a place from which they could genuinely contend (I do)? Do you think there is ANY chance that Moore could be looking to acquire Bourn?

Charles

December 28, 2012 at 3:47 PM

Blogger Kenneth said...

did you really feel you needed to write a column to apologize or justify your reasons for being against ? Those people won't be convinced by your logic. I fear they will look at your list of pitchers referenced and say "James Shields is better than those guys and that's why we won this trade."

I enjoy your writing. I enjoy your insight. Put a donation link on your page. I pay for NPR why wouldn't people donate to you ?

I'd read your writing about any subject. And while I understand why you currently can't write about current Syria, I would absolutely love to read another history lesson on the region.

Thank you for your essay. Can Bob Dutton explain to us why bringing back Hoch is a good idea ? We waited too long with Bannister, we waited too long with Davies ? Is there a history of pitchers with this type of history turning it around or is the new pitching coach Charlie Hough :-)

December 28, 2012 at 7:39 PM

Blogger Kenneth said...

ST John. You are wrong. Reference 2005 White Sox pitching staff. 'nuff said.

December 28, 2012 at 7:41 PM

Blogger Unknown said...

I'm glad that Rany admitted that part of the reason he spewed such vitriol in the Grantland article was because he was miffed that Dayton Moore made the trade after Rany lobbied so hard against it for the two weeks prior to the trade.

Rany, I've enjoyed reading your blog for years. But you went too far this this time. Right now Wil Myers hasn't done anything that Kila Ka'aihue didn't also do. In fact, their minor league numbers are virtually identical. As I recall, you used to eviscerate the Royals for not bringing up Ka'aihue a lot sooner than they' did.

You were wrong about Ka'aihue. You could just as easily be wrong about Wil Myers.

And, if having Shields and Miller here helps create a winning team, that could influence whether or not the Royals will be able to keep guys like Hosmer and Moustakas when they become eligible for free agency.

December 29, 2012 at 9:43 PM

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December 29, 2012 at 9:44 PM

Blogger Nathan said...

I am okay with this trade, because Sheilds is one of the top 15-20 starters in the game, and Wade Miller still has upside. However, I think the Royals still need a right fielder if they want to compete in 2012. Could they be in on Justin Upton, Dexter Fowler, or Bourn? The 2013 Royals look like the best team since 1994 (yes, 2003 was a fluke), but they need at least one more piece to truly compete, in my opinion.

December 30, 2012 at 6:42 AM

Blogger Charles Winters said...

To Unknown 12/29 9:43PM:

Myers = Ka'aihue is so silly. Ka'aihue was 26 in AAA, Myers 21. Have you actually read anything Rany or Rob Neyer or Bill James or ANYONE has written about how age matters?

December 30, 2012 at 9:00 AM

Blogger Antonio. said...

1. While I'm usually not this kind of stickler, how about we not call our new addition Wade Miller? That'd be good for everyone involved! :)

2. Myers, the prospect > Hosmer, the prospect. Better Split, ISO, slugging. Strikes out more, but walks more often.

3. So much talk about rushing prospects hurting them, but never any word about delaying prospects hurting them. Any chance KK (or Huber or any other marginal prospect the Royals allowed to rot in the minors) could have found some semblance of success had the Royals brought them up over playing the Ross Gloads?

December 30, 2012 at 12:07 PM

Blogger Antonio. said...

Oh and 4. A lot of talk about what Myers hasn't accomplished in the majors. Where's the talk about how he hasn't failed in the majors, a la Hosmer/Moose..? They've each shown brilliance, which Myers hasn't been given the opportunity to show, but he also doesn't have the question marks that come with Hosmer/Moose time spent in the bigs.

December 30, 2012 at 12:09 PM

Blogger Gatewaydon said...

Any chance the Royals could get Giancarlo Stanton? Looks like the Marlin's are listening. Send Frenchy, Bubba and Simmer plus $6M.

December 30, 2012 at 2:00 PM

Blogger twm said...

The scorn being heaped on Rany is startling. Seriously, Unknown, Rany went to far? What, did he punch your Mother or something?

December 30, 2012 at 3:56 PM

Blogger Charles Winters said...

Since unknown (12/29 - 9:43 PM) wants to bring up the Ka'aihue bit.

In 2009 Dayton Moore brought in MIKE JACOBS to avoid playing Ka'aihue. Are you going to argue the Jacobs was better? That was why Rany was so stridently against the Jacobs acquisition. He was predictably going to be bad and was actually worse. The 2009 Royals were not close to any post season so why would you have wasted your time on Mike Jacobs?

I also agree: TOO FAR? What the heck are you talking about?

December 31, 2012 at 8:23 AM

Blogger Fast Eddie said...

Miguel Tejada for $1.1 million? Endy Chavez? Xavier Nady? Willy Taveras? .... Jeff Francoeur? Let's wait and see what wheels fall off in 2013.

December 31, 2012 at 6:57 PM

Blogger Troy Harrison said...

I'm starting to wonder about Rany's unhealthy obsession with Jeff Francoeur. Really? If we don't win in 2013, it's going to be all down to Frenchy?

And Rany's entire "analysis" tends to focus on the idea that there were a bunch of different moves that, if the Royals had made them, it would be better. If my Grandma had had balls, she'd have been my Grandpa. Sometimes you've got to make the moves you can make; not every deal is doable.

December 31, 2012 at 10:45 PM

Blogger Charles Winters said...

Guys who can't get on base for $200 Alec:

Endy Chavez, Willy Taveras, Jeff Francoeur

What are three less than replacement level players that the Royals will try rather than Wil Myers in 2013?

January 1, 2013 at 12:31 AM

Blogger Charles Winters said...

So a team that has Willy Taveras and Xavier Nady AND Jeff Francoeur gets Endy Chavez???? WTH?

January 1, 2013 at 12:32 AM

Blogger Unknown said...

Ka'aihue was 24 years old in 2008, not 26. At age 24 Ka'aihue hit .314 with 37 home runs and 100 RBI. At age 21 Myers hit .314 with 37 home runs and 109 RBI.

You can't honestly look back in hindsight and say that Rany didn't consider Ka'aihue to be a great prospect. By the way, Ka'aihue failed miserably in the major leagues.

The point is that Wil Myers is STILL an extremely unproven prospect who struck out way too often in AAA and has never even seen a major league curve ball, much less got a hit off of one.

Could he turn out to be a very good major league player? Sure he could. But this is the same guy who hit .254 with 8 home runs for the entire season in 2011 in AA, so let's stop talking about the guy as if he is Babe Ruth.

There's a much better article on the Grantland web site that explains why this trade had to be made. The article is titled "Future Royalty: The Kansas City Royals may be baseball's team of the future, but what about the present?", and it includes the following quote:

Royals fans know from experience that the road from top prospect to productive major leaguer is long and littered with failure. Like the old line about the forward pass, only three things can happen when you've got a prospect, and two of them — he gets hurt or he's no good — are bad.

The article at Grantland also includes the following analysis of Zack Greinke:

Last winter, around the same time as the Royals' farm system was taking its victory lap, the team traded Greinke. He forced the trade, said he was sick of losing. "There's no reason for me to get real excited about it," Greinke said of the youth movement, "because the chance of more than one of them making a major impact by the time my contract is up is pretty slim."

Obviously the author of this 2011 article understood that sometimes it's important to try to win NOW, if for no other reason than to give your existing players a reason to stay with the team. It's too bad the author forgot that. The author of the 2011 article is a guy named Rany Jazayerli.

January 1, 2013 at 7:07 AM

Blogger Michael said...

I love hearing people over react to minor league deals. Makes me giggle.

Guys, these are depth signings. Most if not all of them will not even play at all for the big league club. They are there for insurance in case of injuries. Nothing to get your panties in a wad about on January 1.

January 1, 2013 at 9:02 AM

Blogger twm said...

The thinking must be that one of them will end up tripping over a renaissance season.

January 1, 2013 at 10:08 AM

Blogger Charles Winters said...

I can honestly look back and say that Rany was RIGHT about Ka'aihue not being worse than Mike Jacobs and being a whole lot cheaper, too.

Seriously, you're going to defend your "analysis" that Ka'aihue=Myers by saying that in 2008 Ka'ihue was 24 and Myers was 21 in 2012 and they had "the same" season? Really?

Clueless.

January 1, 2013 at 3:32 PM

Blogger Charles Winters said...

The reason Rany yelled for Ka'aihue to get his shot is we had no better options in the system and Mike Jacobs was provably failing.

January 1, 2013 at 3:34 PM

Blogger twm said...

I am starting to wonder if the Royals might end up 4th in the division in 2013. Detroit is the clear favorite; Chicago improves with the return of Danks and is always kind of a wild card team, hard to project for some reason; and now the Indians are kind of surprising me with their moves, such that enough squinting makes me wonder if they might jump into the conversation as a potential 85-win type team.

I know the "rah-rah" types out there love the Shields trade because it gives us our best pitcher since Greinke, and also because the AL Central is kind of soft so maybe a few key improvements from position players combined with an improved rotation might get us back into +.500 baseball -- and I get that, I disagree, but I get it -- but man, this division all the sudden looks a lot more competitive.

January 1, 2013 at 5:02 PM

Blogger Unknown said...

All right, forget Ka'aihue. The fact remains that Wil Myers is STILL a completely unproven commodity, and unless he is a hell of lot better player than Gordon/Hosmer/Moustakas and figures it out at the major league level a lot quicker than they did, he's not going to be putting up significant numbers in 2013, possibly not even in 2014.

I recently heard someone else say this, and it's remarkably true: Royals fans have been trained to put WAY too much value on their minor league prospects, because that's the only thing we've had to cheer for.

The goal of a major league baseball team is to win at the major league level, not stockpile prospects. This trade makes the Royals better in 2013 and 2014 than they would otherwise be.

January 1, 2013 at 9:42 PM

Blogger Unknown said...

Just curious, Rany: Why did you start moderating comments? I assume you had to because some people just couldn't keep it civil. That's sad. We are all Royals fans.

January 1, 2013 at 9:44 PM

Blogger Charles Winters said...

Unknown:
Yes, it's true that the Royals put way too much value on many of their prospects. It was certainly true of Ka'aihue - a decent acquisition would have made sense to avoid playing Ka'aihue. BUT - Jacobs wasn't that guy at all.

But degrading Myers because of Ka'aihue or Gordon or any number of other prospects makes little sense. Now, comparing him to Hosmer or Moustakas does make sense.

Myers hitting stats were better than Moustakas in the high minors (more walks). They were about the same overall as Hosmer's. The idea that Myers might develop a little slowly at the major league level makes some sense.

This trade DOES make the Royals better in 2013. I just think we gave up too much to get not better enough. That's all. I'm not saying the trade makes us worse in 2013 or 2014. I'm not saying Myers is the second coming of Ruth. I'm saying that we are definitely now LESS set in 2015 or 2016 which is where Hosmer and Moustakas's and Perez's primes most likely are.

However, in 2015 and 2016 Gordon and Butler will be post-prime.... So, we're going to make a run with 2 players that are in prime and 3 that are still a bit raw.... oh, and Frenchy still here.....

January 2, 2013 at 10:10 AM

Blogger 28 years and counting said...

Definition of Moral Hazard (from a recent NY Times article):

"Moral hazard sounds like the name of a video game set in a bordello, but in economic terms it refers to the undue risks that people are apt to take if they don’t have to bear the consequences."

Dayton Moore bears 100% of the risk if this trade doesn't work out in the next two years, since he will undoubtedly be fired. Why do you insist on using the this term so incorrectly in your analysis of the trade? There is no moral hazard here, Moore is playing very much with his currency, i.e. the prospects he developed.

January 2, 2013 at 10:47 AM

Blogger Charles Winters said...

Isn't it time to change your name, 26?

January 2, 2013 at 10:55 AM

Blogger Unknown said...

True, it's not formally moral hazard, because if a GM doesn't get fired, he will have to bear the consequences of moves with long term costs. However, a GM may still have a personal incentive to give short-term considerations more weight than he would if he were purely looking out for the organization, in order to save his job. I don't think that's what Moore is doing here--but the idea that it could happen to some GMs makes sense.

When most people use the term "moral hazard," they mean that a leader of an organization acts against the interests of the organization for his own personal benefit. It's not correct, but it's fairly common usage, and this is baseball after all, not some deep economic analysis. Everyone knows what Rany means. :)

January 2, 2013 at 11:26 AM

Blogger B1G said...

I'm not sure you are right about it being a moral hazard for Dayton.

Dayton Moore's desire to win now appears also to be the organization's goal. If David Glass has told him to win now, how is it a conflict for Dayton Moore to try to win now?

January 2, 2013 at 12:38 PM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hochevar contract. Discuss.

January 19, 2013 at 11:50 PM

Blogger Michael said...

Not much to discuss. Once he was tendered we knew his contract would be right about where it is. I just wish he wouldn't have been tendered.

January 20, 2013 at 7:16 AM

Blogger Charles Winters said...

It goes back to what I've said. The problem is not just David Glass. Oh, sure, Glass should open his pocket book wider if he really wants to win, but when it's Dayton Moore spending my money I'd slam that thing shut.

There is NO reason to have offered Hochevar a contract if you were going to trade Wil Myers for pitching. Dayton Moore doesn't understand what the word planning means.

I hope that this contract is not fully guaranteed.... If it is, this represents about 3.8M of David Glass's money more down the drain than if they had gone to arbitration and lost.

January 20, 2013 at 10:14 AM

Blogger Antonio. said...

Maybe Rany wasn't kiddin' about movin' on.

January 20, 2013 at 1:34 PM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

So, my knowledge of how arbitration and Super Two status works is pretty poor. But this guy was historically bad. Why not go to arbitration, his value gets set at maybe a million dollars, maybe less. Then cut him a check and send him on his way. He can go suck on someone else's 40-man roster.

January 20, 2013 at 1:50 PM

Blogger Antonio. said...

It doesn't work like that. Super Two would have no bearing on Hochevar at this point in his career. And he can't get a contract reduced more than 20%. They shouldn't have tendered him a contract and let him go on his way.

January 20, 2013 at 5:03 PM

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