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Post a Comment On: Rany on the Royals

"Hillman and the Bullpen."

25 Comments -

1 – 25 of 25
Anonymous Will said...

I think what many of us good statheads want is not merely longer saves, but Soria appearances that don't necessarily mean he finishes the game. True high-leverage uses against the heart of some other team's order in the 7th or 8th. Of course, it is unworkable when the other 50 guys in the bullpen are all absolutely terrible. Its just not realistic to expect that with the current roster, and maybe not with any roster at this time. Hillman's approach to using Soria is still entirely outs-based. He's getting better, but I think that that is still a flawed model.

April 22, 2010 at 3:50 PM

Blogger Unknown said...

I can't say that I've been upset with Hillman this year. His bullpen management seems better this year over last year, but his personnel hasn't performed. Probably due to an overly high babip for the bullpen. And, they aren't good.

April 22, 2010 at 5:17 PM

Blogger adoyleBU said...

I, for one, am glad we sacrificed what could be a decent team right now (you know, as long as they keep hitting .310 or so) for not even half a season of Coco Crisp and that full train wreck of a season of Mike Jacobs last year. That was totally worth giving up what was a pretty good bullpen for this garbage we get to watch today. Even if the bullpen situation does somehow get figured out in the next few weeks (Josh Rupe is the answer!), what are the chances we will still get 15 hits a game? Slim? None? Is a negative probability possible?

April 22, 2010 at 6:01 PM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

The save stat has ruined most manager's ability to make use of the bullpen in the most effective manner.

April 22, 2010 at 6:20 PM

Blogger Nathan said...

I pretty much agree with this post. The one caveat I have is this: If we see a repeat of the debacle from last spring, when Soria wasn't used for ten days in a row because the team didn't happen to generate any save situations, I will lose faith in him as a manager. I realize there's a baseball orthodoxy in play here that won't be overthrown in a day. But failing to use your best reliever at all, while the bullpen collapses around him, manifestly defies common sense.

I do thank you for providing some context here, though. We should remember that Hillman has actually done a better job of bullpen management (especially since the 2nd half of last year) than most managers in baseball. He's not perfect, but he's not the source of our problems.

April 22, 2010 at 7:00 PM

Blogger gbewing said...

Hillman is not managing his bullpen better than last year using his ace closer for 4 out saves is hardly evidence of competancy. He still doesn't utilize platoon splits corectly and has turned over his bullpen set up 3 or 4 times in first 2 weeks (before the meltdowns and after) He promotes a AAAA lifer and immediately makes him the primary set up man as the previous primary set up man was relaeased after a 2 batter trial opening day.

This is a lot of justification over nothing. look at the whole pen not just Soria

April 22, 2010 at 7:30 PM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

I don't think people are arguing than Hillman use Soria in the 7th and then have him finish the game. Rather, I think the argument is that Hillman should use Soria (or whoever a team's best reliever is) in a situation which has a higher leverage index, thus hoping to get to a point later in the game, with the lead, that has a smaller leverage index (in the 8th and or 9th) for relievers who are less effective than Soria.
Jon

April 22, 2010 at 7:47 PM

Anonymous rljaco said...

I agree with the Anon post above. Assume you're ahead 2-1, one out in the seventh, team behind has runners at second and first and your starter has had it. Why would you not use Soria THEN, hopefully get through the inning, and give your lesser talents a clean start in the last two innings. Sure, great if Soria can go an extra inning -- but aren't you just better off having him pitch the seventh in that example?

April 22, 2010 at 9:44 PM

Blogger John said...

I've always found it interesting that LaRussa's A's of the 1988-92 period were able to so definitively change the way relievers were handled, and in all the years since, no one's thought to try anything else, even when the results cry out for it.

LaRussa set up the bullpen the way he did because that fit the talent he had at the time. If you look at his bullpen usage patterns for his first championship team, the '83 White Sox, it was very, very different. He often used both Dennis Lamp and Salome Barojas for long stints late in games.

One thing I remember vividly about LaRussa's heyday in Oakland was that everyone went along except Sparky Anderson. He kept using Mike Henneman in the old-school manner for years, sometimes using him exactly like fans want Soria used now, even if it means someone else pitches the 9th. Like the Royals of today, those Tigers didn't have anyone else decent.

I think part of the reticence on the part of managers to use closers this way is because of their agents. All you have to do is look at how K-Rod got a ton of money because he got 62 saves, even though he wasn't all that great. Henneman pitched for Sparky the way he did because the Tigers paid him commensurate with a quality relief-ace. But does anyone think Soria, used in the same pattern, would today be paid as much for a 25-save season as a 45-save season? The minute Hillman started using him that way, Soria's agent would be calling Dayton Moore.

April 22, 2010 at 9:59 PM

Blogger Clint said...

he doesn't have to have a "long save" to just get out of trouble.. who says he needs to pitch the 8th and 9th.. i'd rather have our best pitcher pitch in the highest leverage situation and the rest try and get through an inning when there is NO ONE ON BASE.

April 23, 2010 at 3:18 AM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

>>I, for one, am glad we sacrificed what could be a decent team right now (you know, as long as they keep hitting .310 or so) for not even half a season of Coco Crisp>>

It's not really fair to judge the Crisp trade that way. Did you know that his season would be cut short? If not, how can you complain because Moore couldn't see into the future either? Crisp wasn't especially injury prone before they signed him. In the five previous seasons he averaged 130 games played.

April 23, 2010 at 3:30 AM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

>problem is that we have exactly one good reliever>

How much better does John Parrish have to pitch before you consider him "good"?

His ERA and inning pitched match Soria's exactly.

In the long run he's never going to be as good as Soria,of course. But, he's been great so far and doesn't deserve to be lumped in with the rest of them

April 23, 2010 at 3:44 AM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

The Cubs have moved a struggling starter (Zambrano) to the bullpen. Maybe the Royals should do the same with Meche.

April 23, 2010 at 8:03 AM

Anonymous Mark said...

I don't follow the Royals as closely or with as much discernment as you but I have a separate complaint about the bullpen. During spring traning it was the area of the team that seemed to be the most concerned about options. Who do we keep, who do we send down, I don't know lets look at their options. It plays to a kind of negative environment that seems to be circulating there. I don't know if it is possible to learn anything in Arizona but when Maier has good(great?) spring and can't get off the bench and the bullpen implodes almost before first contact it does make you wonder.

April 23, 2010 at 8:23 AM

Anonymous Wabbitkiller said...

Here's an interesting question to ponder: Which is more incompetent: Hillman, or Dayton Moore?

April 23, 2010 at 8:38 AM

Anonymous Matt Davis said...

This was a side point in your column, but I'm still curious: When you say "I like Chris Getz, but the notion that Gordon might lose his job to Getz is nutz." are you saying it's nutz because there's no way in hell the Royals are going to do it or because it doesn't make baseball sense? I think a very good case could be made for having Getz start at second because his defense there is superior to Callaspo's. But you have to have Callaspo in the lineup, especially seeing as he strikes out three times less than Gordon. I think Callaspo plays third and Gordon is the odd man out unless he can show he's not going to give away a free out with the strikeout every 4 at bats.

April 23, 2010 at 10:56 AM

Anonymous Chuck said...

Honestly, people, think about this. Soria enters in the seventh to put out a fire, and let's say he goes on to pitch the eighth as well, holding the lead. Then Tejeda, or Rupe or Parrish or whoever, enters in the ninth and blows the lead and game. Hillman might not survive the night, and would certainly be fired soon threafter if he did. You're not asking the man to be unconventional, you're asking him to be a veritable profile in courage. It's Not. Going. To Happen.

April 23, 2010 at 11:16 AM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

Crisp wasn't especially injury prone before they signed him. In the five previous seasons he averaged 130 games played.

I read this comment, and several blood vessels in my brain exploded. Averaging 130 games is pretty much precisely the definition of "injury-prone"; it means you missed a MONTH every season!

When Crisp was signed, his injury risk was one of the things we kept fretting about right from the START. I'm just absolutely gobsmacked that anyone could even make the above comment.

As for the bullpen, I can't blame Hillman much. I can't even blame him for bringing in Rupe -- not because he was the "best available option", but because he'd actually been GOOD so far. (He'd had some problems a couple of days previous, but it must be noted in all fairness that he had induced groundballs which SHOULD have resulted in three recorded outs but was rewarded by the incompetent Royal defense with only ONE.)

April 23, 2010 at 1:56 PM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

Chuck,
The Royals get very litle ink outside KC. If he did, no one would notice, or at the least he might get called out as being "gutsy". However, it's kind of like the football team that goes for it on 4th and 2. It just shows a lack of confidence in the Defense...

Going to Soria 1st out of the pen sends a really bad signal to the pen, and the writers, on what Hillman really thinks of his bullpen... Is he really gutsy enough to draw that much attention to the pen that DM handed him?

April 23, 2010 at 2:23 PM

Blogger Jim M said...

Cruz and Mendoza out... Chen and Thompson in... not sure how this trade-off will pan out, but never understood how they struggled to make a decision on the bullpen in spring training, and then brought in Mendoza, so this has got to be a big plus on the Mendoza line.

http://www.kansascity.com/2010/04/23/1898197/royals-cut-cruz-mendoza.html

April 23, 2010 at 3:54 PM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

Crudz and the Mario Mendoza of pitchers shouldn't have been released or DFA'd. They should have been asked to commit seppuku or drink hemlock!

April 23, 2010 at 10:11 PM

Anonymous Carl Willingham said...

To John who posted earlier, that was a great post my man. Some old school referrances mixed with a great point about agents and pitcher usage. Thanks.

April 23, 2010 at 10:15 PM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

Why don't we move Meche to the bullpen?

April 23, 2010 at 10:42 PM

Blogger Dan said...

I'm really surprised that Rany missed Craig's point, which many have already pointed out. The best use of the best reliever in your bullpen is not necessarily as a closer. Bring him in anytime in the last three innings when the scoring threat is greatest (men are on base, middle of the order, etc). Let him get out of that jam, and whether he gets three outs or stay in for six, he got you out of the jam and you still have the lead. Worry about keeping a lead in the ninth when there is actually a lead in the ninth to worry about.

April 24, 2010 at 12:52 AM

Blogger irishguy said...

Once again, 10,000 words when a few will suffice:

When you have one pitcher in an 8-man bullpen, it doesn't really matter when you use the guy.

April 24, 2010 at 1:07 PM

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