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Post a Comment On: Rany on the Royals

"For Want Of A Pitcher: Jason Vargas?"

26 Comments -

1 – 26 of 26
Blogger Mark LaFlamme said...

Well stated. The last line brings it home for me. Every year, I pray Dayton Moore will do a better job of dealing. Every year he finds new ways to take us backwards. I wish I had it in me to walk away until the Moore era is over. Seven friggin years.

November 22, 2013 at 12:52 AM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

I think you have things backward. The Royals definitely need a "sure-thing", "inning-eating" pitcher right now. The high-risk, high-reward pitchers are already on the 40-man roster: Zimmer, Ventura, Duffy, etc.

Now what happens when Duffy has a relapse in the spring (almost certain given the history of those with "Tommy John" surgery), and Zimmer and Ventura are not ready in the spring and need to spend time in AAA until July? Holland in the rotation?

On Wednesday, there were only two starting pitchers that you could be reasonably certain would be available on opening day. This team needed a (relatively) young pitcher who could be guaranteed (as much as any pitcher could) to be a steady starter for the forseeable future. They already have the potential star pitchers in the organization.

The one thing that the organization absolutely cannot afford is a complete rotation collapse next year - Duffy, Zimmer, Ventura not available and the "high risk" pitcher you suggest not being available due to performance or injury (depending on the type of risk.)

November 22, 2013 at 7:34 AM

Blogger John said...

I agree that for what they just accomplished, they should and could have just re-signed Chen for less money and years. But Tim Hudson, at this stage of his career, is the right-handed version of Vargas or Chen, only he will cost more because he used to be better than that. Look at his 2013: injury-prone pitcher with a 3.97 ERA and an ERA+ of 97.

November 22, 2013 at 10:37 AM

Blogger Thomas said...

"There’s ... very little chance that he’ll be underpaid." Unless, as everyone predicts, there is a significant escalation in free agent costs this year and thereafter.

November 22, 2013 at 2:39 PM

Blogger Unknown said...

Agree (as usual it seems) with your assessment.
1) Total Meh. Lot of arms with greater upside to "hope" for a #4 starter becoming a #2 starter.
2) Chen + offense > Vargas better for budget (despite the apprehension that Chen as a starter evokes).
3) What did Kottras do to deserve the boot? Makes me curious what secrets the Pena family has requiring the hush money signing.

Side note:
We are free of the Moonlight / Nightmare Graham of Royals history: Carlos Pena.
3 ab / 3 strike outs in 4 games including the painful 9th inning strike out looking with runners on 2nd and 3rd vs Indians.
How many guys can top that resume for a team?

November 22, 2013 at 5:08 PM

Blogger Curtis Burton said...

Thanks for ruining my day, Rany. I am so depressed now I need chocolate.

November 22, 2013 at 6:27 PM

Blogger ARWINK said...

Zimmer, Duffy, and Ventura are the high reward pitchers. When you were comparing Chen and Vargas you missed one thing that stands out between the 2. It is not MPH, SO, or BB. Innings. Vargas averaged 190 innings the last 4 years and Chen around 150 innings. That is why Vargas is paid more. If Chen could be counted on for that many innings you would not be able to get him for what you mentioned.

November 22, 2013 at 8:33 PM

Blogger Unknown said...

Rany would hate any signing ever..

November 22, 2013 at 9:16 PM

Blogger Unknown said...

Moore's track record does make me a little nervous. Guthrie, Santana, Paulino, Chen show his ability to recognize scrap heap talent. Sanchez and Davis show that it's not that easy. And another plus to Chen is that we know he can come out of the bullpen if he struggles a a starter.

November 23, 2013 at 8:17 AM

Blogger Unknown said...

I read that the Royals are going pretty hard after Beltran. One of my favorite players ever. What is the thinking on his defense these days? He was once a good CF. Leg problems have robbed him of a step....or more. Have the results in right been bad?

November 23, 2013 at 9:03 AM

Blogger Mark said...

Really well put and argued (tip of the cap to MLB Trade Rumors for sending folks here)

As a Padres fan-we could make a similar argument for why the Josh Johnson signing feels like the FO might actually know what it's doing-

November 23, 2013 at 11:03 AM

Comment deleted

This comment has been removed by the author.

November 23, 2013 at 2:56 PM

Blogger Unknown said...

The problem with the Bruce Chen comparison is that the last time Chen through 191 innings, his ERA was 5.07. Chen cannot throw the same innings with the same effectiveness as Vargas. Hence the 4/32 contract.

November 23, 2013 at 2:58 PM

Blogger Unknown said...

Difference between Chen money and Vargas money is not the same as ability to eat innings. Chen wins, especially since he seems to be a great clubhouse influncee. Vargas/Chen thing would not be worth mentioning except that Royals chose to save a few pennies at catcher in dropping Kottaras, yet he is an ideal backup for Salvy. Come on, Moore!

November 23, 2013 at 6:27 PM

Blogger David W. Lowe said...

I'm hearing from Bob Dutton, and then straight from Dayton Moore, the idea that Luke Hochevar is being considered for the 2014 rotation.

Luke was flat out awesome in 2013. ERA, S0/BB, S0/9, WHIP were all off the charts.

Is there any chance Hochevar somehow harnesses success in the bullpen and translates it into success in the rotation? Can he go full throttle for 6 innings like he did for 1-2 innings in the pen?

David

November 23, 2013 at 6:33 PM

Blogger John said...

In all likelihood, if they put Hochevar back into the rotation, he'll go back to being the same replacement-level pitcher that he was before. When a starter transitions to relief and then goes back, it typically only works if the guy had been a quality starter before, like John Smoltz was. For every C.J. Wilson, there are a dozen Joba Chamberlains.

Hochevar and Wade Davis are good bullpen options, but dreadful choices for the rotation. The Royals should trade Holland or Hochevar, make whoever stays the closer, and then give Davis the other's job.

November 24, 2013 at 3:09 AM

Blogger Wiking44 said...

Rany, you're nothing more than a whiney little $#!%^*. You always have been and you always will be. Do yourself a favor and just stop writing. You are an arrogant moron and that has to be one of the worst combinations possible.

November 24, 2013 at 7:34 AM

Blogger Unknown said...

Looking at just a Starter v. Starter breakdown using 2011-2013 stats

Chen
74 GS, 434 IP, 6.03 K/9, 2.49 BB/9, 1.26 HR/9, .281 BAbip
4.31 ERA, 4.49 FIP, 4.69 xFIP, 5.2 WAR

Vargas
89 GS, 568 IP, 6.03 K/9, 2.53 BB/9, 1.17 HR/9, .281 BAbip
4.04 ERA, 4.32 FIP, 4.41 xFIP, 4.6 WAR

After accounting for the HR/9 difference one would expect from a Sea/Ana pitcher against a KC one, one can see that the two have been nearly the exact same pitcher the last 3 seasons.

So yay, we basically signed Chen-by-another-name to a new 4 year, 32 Million contract!

and to "Unknown" who complained about Chen's IP marks, a simple question - would you rather have either Chen or Vargas going deep in games with their average-to-below production, or would you rather have them exit after 5-6 and instead turning the game over to the best bullpen in baseball?

IP are only a huge benefit is the production being given is better then the production the Pen can produce. Going to a killer Pen after an average starter merely kept you in the game thru 6 is much smarter then trying to squeak out an extra inning they will likely bomb in

November 24, 2013 at 2:07 PM

Blogger Unknown said...

Does the $88m figure include Santana's #?

November 24, 2013 at 4:09 PM

Blogger Unknown said...

To answer S. O'Brien's question of who would I want to go late into ball games Chen or Vargas? Or, would I want them to exit after 5 or 6 innings and go to the best bull pen in baseball. My answer is that the best bull pen in baseball might have to come in after the 5th inning when Duffy pitches. So, I might have to consider the possibility that Chen or Vargas will have to pitch deep into the games. I would prefer Vargas. He has shown the ability to pitch more seasons with high innings at a major league average pitcher performance than Chen.

November 25, 2013 at 12:59 PM

Blogger Steve N said...

Rany, many thanks for another year of wonderful articles.

Steve N

November 28, 2013 at 3:57 AM

Blogger Michael S. said...

Twins just signed Ricky Nolasco to a 4 year, 49 million dollar deal. Nolasco and Vargas are both 31, and got the same number of years. Nolasco is a better pitcher, but is he $4 million more a year better?

This signing shows me that the Royals valued Vargas just about right.

November 29, 2013 at 9:54 AM

Blogger twm said...

Nolasco has been about a +3 pitcher for his career, Vargas has been about a +2. At $5 million/WAR, Nolasco has been almost exactly $4 million/year more valuable than Vargas. But of course they are not the same pitcher, with Nolasco being a bit more of a strikeout guy, and of course with Nolasco's career exclusively in the NL and Vargas exclusively in the AL. It does not appear that the Twins stretched to sign him, maybe in years, but almost everyone thinks they signed a guy to a reasonable deal. I still think the Vargas signing made more sense for the Twins than for the Royals, and adding both guys would have greatly improved their rotation for not a ton of money. Anyway, both teams seem to have valued correctly on a dollar/WAR basis, whether the charge money was the best way for the Royaos to allocate scarce resources is the question.

November 29, 2013 at 5:28 PM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

The other commenters have already hit the nail on the head: Vargas was a solid signing because the Royals already have their high-risk high-reward pitchers with Duffy, Ventura and Zimmer.

Rany has written a lot of interesting articles over the years, but he is wrong just as often as he is right. Let's not forget that Rany told us for years how awesome Kila Ka'aihue would be if only the Royals would give him a chance. I keep that in mind whenever Rany goes off one one of his rants.

November 30, 2013 at 10:37 AM

Blogger Michael S. said...

Is it a great signing? No. But in my opinion anytime you can get a guy that consistently throws about 200 innings of league average baseball for fair market value its not a bad thing.

November 30, 2013 at 1:19 PM

Blogger Antonio. said...

KK and Moose have the same OPS+

Moose is the better over all player, by WAR, which is a better stat, but OPS+ is the simplest advanced stat that matters, so it's no small thing. The only difference between the two is that Moose gets a chance and KK not much of one.

December 6, 2013 at 11:41 PM

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