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Post a Comment On: Rany on the Royals

"The Future."

11 Comments -

1 – 11 of 11
Blogger Unknown said...

As for Gordo, "The Royals don’t really need him to be a good player at the end of his contract. They need him to be a good player for the next two years." Agree 1,000%. Statistics and aging curve be damned, but I think we have yet to see Gordon's best season. Just my opinion. Will the recent Price and Greinke signings translate to everyday players? The market is still waiting to be set for Gordo, Heyward, Zobrist, Upton, Cespedes, et. al., and the amount of dollars is scary given what has been spent on starting pitching thus far. The Royals next TV contract can't come soon enough...

December 5, 2015 at 12:48 AM

Blogger John said...

I agree completely. Break the bank for 2016-17: resign Gordon and sign/trade for two mid-level starting pitchers. After the '17 season, trade Gordon and (assuming he can still walk) Salvy for prospects and let the rebuild begin, with Mondesi, Starling and Cuthbert as the foundation.

December 5, 2015 at 3:15 PM

Blogger John said...

Or, they could operate like the Rays did under Friedman, and trade away their veterans when they're two years away from free agency. I don't think Moore is going to go that route, or he already would have started, but he could get an enormous return if he suddenly put those seven post-2017 free agents on the market. That might make 2016 suck and 2017 mediocre, but if they made the right deals, they might be right back into contention by 2018 and for years to come after that.

I think that would actually be KC's best option, but they probably never seriously considered it because of the backlash from doing a fire sale after a World Series title. But I think it's better than trying to win again in 2016-17 with the payroll likely nearly maxed out, and then losing 100 games for the next four years because everyone left and you're right back to square one.

December 5, 2015 at 4:10 PM

Blogger luke said...

Agree. It sure would be nice to have the Cardinals system and never have to worry about windows--but with our financial restrictions and the market exploding this offseason (and the Royals not getting a new TV contract for at least another 2 years), it's really time to push all the chips to the center of the table. With the wave all basically arriving at the same time several years back, they all will depart at the same time. It's a wave which creates a window.

I would be 100% behind trading Mondesi for a #1 starter. As up and down as Cueto was, the Royals quite possibly don't get out of the ALDS without him, and the WS may have been a bit different. They need to add a good mid-level starter in free agency, and then possibly trade for a #1 and an outfielder. Push to contend again this year and maybe 2017.

As for trading current players before they hit free agency, I think next offseason is the time to consider that, after evaluating where the team is and if they can contend in 2017. You wouldn't be giving up two years of control, but you're still packaging QO 1st round picks that go with them after the one year.

December 5, 2015 at 10:00 PM

Blogger Paul White said...

I love the comparison to Dwight Evans. Through their first 9 seasons (plus an 18-game cup of coffee for Evans in 1972), their career totals are extremely similar:

Evans - 1172 games, 4393 PAs, 569 R, 391 XBH, 514 RBI, 500 BB, .265/.352/.456
Gordon - 1136 games, 4818 PAs, 605 R, 417 XBH, 523 RBI, 468 BB, .269/.348/.435


Evans' OPS+ was 119, Gordon's is 112.

Evans' bWAR was 33.0, Gordon's is 31.8.

The most critical difference is that Evans compiled his numbers though his age-29 season thanks to arriving in the big leagues when he was only 20. Gordon took two extra full years, age wise.

So, if the trend holds, what could we expect from Gordon the next 5 seasons? Well, I won't take Evans' 10th through 14th seasons as comparisons because, again, he was two years younger. Instead I'll take his age 32-36 seasons since those are the years we are talking about for Gordon. If Gordon could mimic Evans, he'd post numbers that look something like this each of the next 5 years:

155 G, 685 PAs, 104 R, 163 H, 65 XBH, 98 BB, .283/.387/.503, 139 OPS+, 4.4 bWAR

Granted, these were basically Evans' most healthy years after comparatively injury-plagued early seasons, but that's the point. He took care of himself and had a broad skill set that aged well and allowed for longevity and durability through his mid-to-late 30s. Gordon is tracking the same, and those numbers suggest that 5 years and $80-85 million would actually be an incredible bargain.

December 7, 2015 at 9:51 AM

Blogger BobDD said...

The other must-read about signing Alex Gordon:
www.fangraphs.com/blogs/alex-gordon-a-value-buy-in-free-agency/

December 7, 2015 at 5:17 PM

Comment deleted

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December 8, 2015 at 12:27 AM

Blogger John Viril said...

Rany, Given that Dayton Moore and most of the Royals front office came up with Atlanta during their string of 15 straight playoff appearances, I suspect they think they can build a consistent winner.

I did read a quote from Royals Review in their story about recent Winter Meetings history that the former Atlanta front office guys thought that teams often over-valued prospects. One used Alex Gordon as an example asking, "When did he have more trade value, in 2006 or after he was a two-time All-Star?"

Given this history, I wouldn't be surprised to see prospects traded for younger players whenever possible. Though I do agree teams value young veterans more than ever before. It will be interesting to see which way the Royals front office goes now that other teams are bidding up set-up men in an attempt to build a "Royals" bullpen.

Now we'll see if the Royals really are a "Moneyball" team, or if the front office simply bumbled into a success model.

December 8, 2015 at 12:33 AM

Blogger Unknown said...

My only disagreement is that in a 2-wild card environment the marginal value of every win over 90 is lower than it has ever been, so I think it's a reasonable long-term plan to build a 90-win team every year and take your chances. My guess is that they see Starling as an Alex Gordon starter kit--more defensive value (position and ability), less offensive value (though with a similar profile--decent power, decent patience, contact issues) and think a Cain/Starling/Orlando (or FA to be named) OF can be just as valuable as Gordon/Cain/Rios.

I agree that the R's have a better shot of locking up Moustakas than Hosmer, though I doubt that it'll happen. Between Cuthbert and Colon my guess is that the Royals believe they have two in-house options for potential replacements for Moustakas in 2018. And I'd tend to agree with that. As for Hosmer, I'd send Boras a couple of extension offers just for giggles, because I think he'll be the hardest one to replace, and his production to this point in his career don't call for top-5 at his position money. Maybe just copy/paste the Freddie Freeman contract and see what happens.

December 8, 2015 at 8:06 AM

Blogger Cowdisicple said...

As a fan of another AL central team... Congratulations on the championship. Totally agree that the last two years justify the whole rebuild process regardless of what happens next.

That said, do you really believe the Royals' core is good enough to warrant win-now moves, or is that post-championship cloud talk? The WAR projections see the Royals, right now, as the worst team in the AL central (although I will certainly admit that the division looks bad as a whole and is probably winnable for anyone.)

I would be afraid of what happened to the Padres last year, and what looks likely to happen to the Diamondbacks this year - trading the future for the present when the present core just isn't good enough.

Even assuming signing Gordon AND Cueto, or trading the farm for a top-end starter, projections would still put the team somewhere in the 12-ish range of baseball for total WAR. Obviously there's plenty of room to quibble with the specific projections, and obviously they're high-variance and very wrong on a few teams each year.

Still, that's a pretty significant gap. Seems like a long shot to trade the future for. I guess I'm curious as to whether you believe the numbers and think the long shot is worth it anyway, or if you think the WAR projections are selling the Royals very short.

December 13, 2015 at 6:49 PM

Blogger Cowdisicple said...

As a fan of another AL central team... Congratulations on the championship. Totally agree that the last two years justify the whole rebuild process regardless of what happens next.

That said, do you really believe the Royals' core is good enough to warrant win-now moves, or is that post-championship cloud talk? The WAR projections see the Royals, right now, as the worst team in the AL central (although I will certainly admit that the division looks bad as a whole and is probably winnable for anyone.)

I would be afraid of what happened to the Padres last year, and what looks likely to happen to the Diamondbacks this year - trading the future for the present when the present core just isn't good enough.

Even assuming signing Gordon AND Cueto, or trading the farm for a top-end starter, projections would still put the team somewhere in the 12-ish range of baseball for total WAR. Obviously there's plenty of room to quibble with the specific projections, and obviously they're high-variance and very wrong on a few teams each year.

Still, that's a pretty significant gap. Seems like a long shot to trade the future for. I guess I'm curious as to whether you believe the numbers and think the long shot is worth it anyway, or if you think the WAR projections are selling the Royals very short.

December 13, 2015 at 6:50 PM

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