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Post a Comment On: Rany on the Royals

"Royals Today: The Relievers."

31 Comments -

1 – 31 of 31
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Thanks for the great analysis.

Hope we are all still "feeling better" this year. Despite being in last place, it "feels better" this year. Despite getting our head kicked in again, it "feels better" this year. It is a matter of degree, maybe we are getting our head kicked in a little less.

Well, it is. Two games better. Go Royals, in 10 years, this will be some product.

July 22, 2008 at 3:05 PM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

While we're talking about the worst relievers in Royals history, although Albie Lopez was bad, I remember Graeme Lloyd most from 2003. Looking at the stats now, I accept that Albie Lopez was worse. But Graeme Lloyd ate my soul, because we got him from the Mets, where he was a good reliever, with a 3.31 ERA. After we got him (that same season, mind you!), he posted a 10.95 ERA in 12.1 IP. If you want to make me cry, force me to look into his game log with the Royals in 2003.

July 22, 2008 at 3:27 PM

Blogger Unknown said...

The only thing crazy about using Tony Pena Jr. as a pitcher is that if the Roylas ever wanted to trade him, an AL team would be the only option. NL teams wouldn't want a pitcher who's that bad when he has to bat.

July 22, 2008 at 3:28 PM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

What's the contract status for Horacio Ramirez and Robinson Tejeda?
It seems like I've seen that Horacio is a FA at year end?
Is Tejeda entering his first year of arbitration?

July 22, 2008 at 3:38 PM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

One comment on Mahay. My bet is he is loving the prospect of a trade to a contender. Professionals play for two things; money and chmapionships. While we would like to believe a player wants to play in KC for the bar-b-q, the school districts or the quality of air, it just isn't true. In fact, I would take your point and reverse it. A player can sign for the Royals for slightly above market value and then know that if he performs well for half a season, he will be traded (with multi-year contract in-tow) to a contender. That would be an incentive to sign!

July 22, 2008 at 3:46 PM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

Pena didn't know how to use Graeme Lloyd, and Lloyd just didn't deliever. Remember that Lloyd was once brought into the game in the 3rd inning when Appier got hurt. Eventually Pena didn't use him for 18 games in a row (and didn't use him in a game that we came within 8 runs of winning)

In 16 games that Lloyd pitched in as a Royal, the Royals lost 15 times.

Since May 21st, Jimmy Gobble has a 15.85 ERA (with 27* earned runs in 15 1/3 IP)

[BR has him giving up 26 runs and 27 earned runs, which doesn't seem possible]

Gobble has walked 17 and struck out 8 over this time.

From April 4th to May 18th, he had a 3.86 ERA with 12K and 4BB in 9 1/3 IP.

So, in all reality, he should probably have his arm checked out as a precaution. Or Trey screwed up Gobble's head big time with some pitcher-handling skills that he learned in Japan.

July 22, 2008 at 3:49 PM

Comment deleted

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July 22, 2008 at 3:51 PM

Blogger Andrew Hoien said...

Rany,

Not to nitpick your fantastic post, but Curt Leskanic had a 1.77 ERA for us after we aquired him from the Brewers in 2003 (albiet in 27 games). His overall ERA for 2003 was 2.22 with 53 appearances between Milwaukee and KC.

Link: http://www.baseball-reference.com/l/leskacu01.shtml

July 22, 2008 at 3:53 PM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

Another reason Soria's non-blistering fastball might work in the rotation:

Shaun Marcum.

I've seen him pitch 7 inning shutouts without ever touching 90. He was a college reliever and SS, I believe.

July 22, 2008 at 3:57 PM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

"he should probably have his arm checked out as a precaution."

Gobble was sent to the DL today with back strain.

Looks like keeping him out for 45 pitches is a great reflection of how Trey learned to manage pitchers in Japan.

July 22, 2008 at 4:14 PM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

Tony Pena and Matt Tupman are the perfect battery (until proven otherwise).

July 22, 2008 at 4:36 PM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

Gobble is on the DL with a bruised ego.

July 22, 2008 at 5:20 PM

Blogger Mike Fast said...

Rany, great article, as usual.

I'm curious about the data behind your assumption that Soria would lose 3 or so mph off his fastball in a starting role? The only study I've seen on the subject, by Dan Turkenkopf, found no change in fastball speed between starting and relieving.

For that matter, to look at your two examples of pitchers moving in the opposite direction, Robinson Tejeda was averaging 94-95 mph as a starter, and that's where he is as a reliever, too. Same for Horacio Ramirez, around 89-90 mph both as a starter and a reliever.

July 22, 2008 at 5:28 PM

Blogger Nathan Hall said...

Although his stuff is completely different from Soria's, Joba Chaimberlain is another pitcher who didn't seem to lose much when returning to the rotation.

July 22, 2008 at 6:20 PM

Blogger Unknown said...

A few questions for you Rany so I hope you read this. Have you heard of a situation similar to the Royals where they purposely put a player on the DL in order to bring a player they just sent down back up? I find it awfully funny that they placed Gobble on the DL and not on the first train out of town. Have they stitched AAA into Musser's uniform? Why have they not given him a chance when we have pitchers like Gobble?

At the beginning of July, it looked as though Aviles was cooling off drastically. In the first seven days of this month, Pena started three games. Aviles went 3-5 on July 7th and hasn't looked back since. Other than that first week of July, since June 25th Pena has started not one game. In the two games he has gotten to the plate in, we won one 9-1 and lost the other 19-4. We have won three one run games and he has been in none of them. We have been in three additional games that have been save situations and Pena has been in none of them.

Therefore, my question is why the hell do we have him? He has only one possible value that I can think of and that is as a late inning defensive replacement. We aren't even using him in those situations anymore and he only is appearing in blow outs. The Royals can't possibly be worried about someone grabbing him off waivers can they? Why do they think we would not be able to stick him in the minors? Why are others who are performing in Omaha not getting a chance while Pena who's value doesn't match that of a utility player is sitting on the bench?

I think you already answered my other question which was why is Gathright still on this team? A guy with a .307OBP and no power should not be starting on a team with serious offensive woes.

July 22, 2008 at 10:37 PM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

What's the contract status for Horacio Ramirez and Robinson Tejeda?

Horacio will be a FA at the end of the year. It looks like Tejeda will still be pre-arb as he will have about 2 years and 90 days of service time, not even enough for "Super 2" status.

July 22, 2008 at 10:50 PM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

What Isaac said! Amen, brother!

July 22, 2008 at 11:15 PM

Blogger Matt S said...

Serious question: are there any blogs out there that get close to the kind on intelligent analysis you get here and on Royals Review? You'd think there would be because the Chiefs have such a huge fan base.

But at the arrowhead forums, maybe one post in 10 isn't either unbridled rosy optimism about the draft or complete vitriol for every single move Carl Peterson has ever made. It would be nice to find some balanced intelligent discussion on the Chiefs like what seems to be abundant for the Royals. thx

July 23, 2008 at 12:34 AM

Blogger Matt S said...

OOPS - I meant to say Chiefs' blogs in that first sentence.

July 23, 2008 at 12:36 AM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

Rany,
I suggest nicknaming Pena: "TP-K" after his punch out of I-Rod. It is also a near perfect description of his hitting so it is appropriate no matter where he is playing.

July 23, 2008 at 6:43 AM

Blogger Unknown said...

Bill: LOL, that was funny.

July 23, 2008 at 10:09 AM

Blogger Rany said...

Responding to Mike Fast:

Hmmm. That is interesting. I was not aware of that study before, and I must say that those results are...shall we say, counterintuitive.

If I'm reading the study correctly, there is a difference in velocity between starting and relieving, but it's on the order of only 1 mph or so. But there is a more significant impact on the movement of pitches - this may be a concern for Soria because his fastball has natural cutting action which is one of the keys to his success.

I must say that I'm not completely convinced by this study, given that multiple 5-star analysts (Nate Silver, Tom Tango) have shown that there is a dramatic improvement in performance when a starter moves to the pen. There has to be some reason for this, doesn't there?

And anecdotally, you can point to Tejeda and Horacio, but the two most significant examples in recent Royals history of pitchers who moved from starting to relieving and back are Jeremy Affeldt and Greinke. Affeldt threw 91-94 as a starter at the beginning of his career - but in the pen he'd hit 96-98. Greinke tops out around 94 as a starter the last two years - he also hit 96-98 as a reliever. Those numbers are subject to massive variance depending on whose radar gun is used, obviously. Pitch F/X data is probably not available for Affeldt's Royals tenure, but we should have some data for Zack.

It's an open area for more study, certainly. If Soria can maintain his velocity in the rotation, so much the better - I support a trial as a starter either way.

July 23, 2008 at 3:13 PM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Lower back stiffness" is Royalese for "severe case of the sucks."

July 23, 2008 at 4:08 PM

Blogger Mike Fast said...

Rany,

I don't count Dan's study as the last word on the issue, but if there's another study on it, I haven't seen it. I don't think we really know why pitchers tend to perform so much better in relief.

I imagine for some pitchers it is a case of improved velocity, but that seems to be far from universally true. I know Tango talks sometimes about the difference being due to being able to throw harder in relief, but as far as I know that is an assumption, not something he has studied.

It seems to be an open question for research about which skills and types of pitchers transfer well from starting to relieving and vice versa.

I looked at Greinke's PITCHf/x data last year, and he lost 1-2 mph when he went back into the rotation, from 94-98 as a reliever to 92-97 as a starter.

I'd like to see Soria in the rotation if only to see that great curveball more often.

July 23, 2008 at 10:25 PM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

I'm absolutely staggered that Mark Davis isn't mentioned once in anyone's discussion of terrible relievers in Royals history.

July 24, 2008 at 12:32 AM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

Rany, great stuff as usual. I would love for someone to write about the recent moves regarding Gordon. Bein pitch hit for then sitting (they guy has started nearly every game). Is he in Hillmans dog house and if so why?

July 24, 2008 at 1:09 AM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

just read the braves are willing to trade francouer. do the royals have anything to offer that they would consider for him? i know we have more than our fair share of low OBP outfielders and hitters in general, but at least francouer has proven to be a solid run producer.

he's definitely better than anything we have outside of dejesus/guillen.

plus he's pretty solid defensively from what i've heard.

with jeff being a brave, i'm sure dayton has heard this news. i just hope GMDM at least inquires about the asking price.

then, if we haven't yet given up on teahen, we can shift him to 1B full-time or relegate him to a 4th OF.

your thoughts?

July 24, 2008 at 5:31 PM

Blogger tza said...

it's good to have a closer.

AND - the Royals are undefeated with Maier starting in center!

July 24, 2008 at 10:00 PM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

tza- we know it is good to have a closer. and we have one: his name is zach grienke. the guy just doesn't have the makeup to be a starter. i think he would be a great closer. the royals need soria to be a starter and they need him to be a great one.
IT HAS BEEN FAR TOO LONG SINCE THIS TEAM WAS RELEVANT. SOMETIMES SOME MOVES NEED TO BE MADE!!!or the royals can keep plodding along at this pace and they'll go 70-90 every year.

July 25, 2008 at 6:16 PM

Blogger Shelby said...

am intrigued by and agree with what Jay in Houston said.

July 27, 2008 at 11:47 AM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

http://www.kansascity.com/sports/story/722113.html

Melky Cabrera For Bannister? I'd like to hear your take.

July 27, 2008 at 2:08 PM

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