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Post a Comment On: Rany on the Royals

"RamRam for Coco."

26 Comments -

1 – 26 of 26
Blogger KCDC said...

Love it. I'm already getting a lot more excited about next summer...wonder what Moore can/will do with Gload, Gathright, and Teahen.

Also, I hate to nitpick a good write-up, but isn't it Pimentel rather than Pimental?

November 20, 2008 at 10:36 PM

Blogger Unknown said...

I don't believe they filled any holes. Many people compare Jacobs to Gload but I compare him to who would have started in 2009. That would be either Shealy, Butler, or Kila at some point.

In CF we lost a significant chunk in offense. We also lost what we could have had in left as DeJesus goes from an above average CF to a below average LF.

Essentially, we made two trades to fill two holes that did not exist and it only cost us $9mil next year and our two top setup men. A small price to pay for nothing I say. Especially with the economy that way it is and all.

November 20, 2008 at 11:39 PM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

Issac
Why would dejesus be a below average lf. He's a plus defender at left field and can ops 800. When you compare him to other left fielders in the league, his defense will make up for his lack of power on offense. Dave Cameron just wrote an article at fangraphs about this exact argument and uses Dejesus as his example you should check it out.

November 21, 2008 at 8:44 AM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

What do you think we get could in return if we were willing to trade Gordon and keep Teahan at 3B? Gordon clearly has more upside and I personally think he is set for a breakout season offensively, but I think Teahan is the better defensive 3B.

I think it's reasonable to think we could package some combination of two or three of Gordon, Butler, Davies, Gathright, Buck, Guillen, Meier, Callaspo, German, or Gload for a stellar SP, SS or 2B and a solid reliever. Thoughts?

-Clay

November 21, 2008 at 9:08 AM

Blogger Jeff said...

I actually disagree with Nate's assessment that Soria's value will never be higher. Simply due to the fact that over a dozen good closers are available via free agency this offseason and only about 6 or 7 teams are actually seeking relievers. Jayson Stark just had an article about this. It seems to me that it is a bad time to trade a closer because clubs can get one without trading prospects, and maybe for a lower price because all of these closers are jockeying for position.

November 21, 2008 at 10:04 AM

Blogger The Mad Rabbi said...

When calculating how many more wins we get with Jacobs/Crisp in the lineup I generally agree with your assessment, Rany.

But, I'm not yet convinced that adding another bat to the lineup is more important than adding another stud pitcher to the rotation. I think adding Ben Sheets will provide us with 10 more wins (or maybe more). Adding a guy like Sheets makes our 1-2-3 pitcher lineup interesting. Does he become #1? Meche 2? Greinke 3? No matter what order, that's an impressive 1-2-3 lineup. Then that also pushes our current 3rd or 4th starter down to 4th or 5th. I think that has a tremendous impact.

I like the moves Moore has made so far, even if Jacobs' OBP sux and his defense is below average. Maybe the Rs saw something in him we haven't. Maybe they think he's very coachable on defense. And either way, we finally have more than one guy who can hit for power. If Guillen can stay healthy, that is.

So now, I await any rumors that we throw the kitchen sink at Sheets or CC. But I don't think there is any chance CC even considers the Royals. But I think Sheets would. Drop Teahen's $3M/year and give Sheets $12M/year. Payroll ends up (I think) in the low $70M range, but I would think we'd be close to contending with that staff.

November 21, 2008 at 10:09 AM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

Unless there is a trade in the works to get some pitching out of the excess position players the Royals have, this is a bad trade and doesn't make any sense.

The problem is, we won't know until the deal is done because Moore does everything in secret, which I can't figure out why. Is is afraid of being criticised? Other GM's are open about the moves they make. It goes back to his Hillman hiring, and everything since then?

If he doesn't have anyhting to hide, then why is he hiding it?

And why did he make another stupid trade for a piece we don't need?

November 21, 2008 at 10:17 AM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

Aviles is not an upgrade at 2B, at least not defensively. He looks at home at SS, but looks lost at 2nd. He has trouble turning the double play from that side as well. I think he is above average at SS, and would get used to second, but I wouldn't move him there unless we got a superior defensive shortstop, and I'm not sure Furcal fits that description anymore.

November 21, 2008 at 11:24 AM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

I don't know how many other GM's (in any sport) send out daily updates about trade conversations and strategies regarding FA acquisitions, Ron.

Moore isn't an elected official. This is a professional baseball team we're talking about. And I've personally listened to and/or read at least 4 different interviews he gave immediately after the trade was finalized.

November 21, 2008 at 11:26 AM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

Ron Rollins,

Why would Moore want everyone to know what he's doing trade wise or free agent wise before he does it?

I don't understand how that would benefit the club at all....

November 21, 2008 at 12:17 PM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

I agree with anonymous 11:26, it would be ridiculous for DM to be telling us fans what he's going to do. I'm quite sure no GM does that. That would be a great way to destroy any negotiating leverage he might have with his peers.

November 21, 2008 at 12:22 PM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

The one problem I have with your analysis is that pitching, even relief pitching, is much harder to obtain. Add into this the fact that RamRam would be inexpesssively under their control for several years(presumably why he was so attractive to the RSox) and the deal has to be considered in a different light.

November 21, 2008 at 12:51 PM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

The Royals now have players in Jacobs and Crisp who bring at least the experience of playing winning baseball to the team---and remember how much better the Royals played when they added Shealy and frankly the 6 HR he hit in September? They don't need to worry now about getting Shealy to repeat that as they now have Jacobs who probably can his 5HR. I think they Royals are a .500 team at worst now.

November 21, 2008 at 1:19 PM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

@Anonymous, 12:51 PM

What alternate MLB reality are you living in? Relief pitching is "harder to obtain" than a legitimate starting CF? Really? If anything, Moore has shown a remarkable ability to find good bullpen arms every year. And I would think most baseball analysts would agree that relief pitchers are the most fungible commodity in the game.

November 21, 2008 at 1:46 PM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

Rany, I was looking forward to your view on this trade. Thanks for the post and congratulations to your brother for his wedding!

November 21, 2008 at 3:15 PM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

I would imagine Dayton Moore doesn't want his dealings made public because he's afraid of the media's take on the offer skewing the trade partner's outlook on the deal. For example, if Teahen for Pie sounds good to the GM of the Cubs at first, but the media comes out and blasts Teahen or touts Pie, this could add complications to the deal.

No matter what these high-ranking front office guys say, they all know what the media and the fans think about them and their take on every personnel move. If the fan's perspective legitimately didn't matter to them, they wouldn't be in the position they're in to decide on personnel moves in the first place.

Also, can we please let the point about GMDM being able to rebuild bullpens die. I'm tired of reading about that one. Everybody and their sister's dog's goldfish's aquarium pebbles has made this point.

It's clear he's counting on Yabuta figuring out MLB hitters and Rosa coming up to help fill the void. But more importantly, this could hint at more multiple inning appearances for Soria. And that would be a better use of innings than you'd get with any setup guy.

I really think this team can compete now and will score some runs even if The Fat Kid and Gordon improve only minimally.

Not only are we adding Crisp and Jacobs to our lineup, we're subtracting Gathright and Gload.

Just let that simmer for a minute.

November 21, 2008 at 3:56 PM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

I think we're going to find out a lot about Trey Hillman next year. Dayton Moore may be able to put together a team capable of making the playoffs--and I'm thrilled to see a Royals GM actually trying to do that for the first time this millennium--but he isn't going to improve this team enough to dominate in 2009. With a marginally competitive roster, Hillman's moves will actually matter. Does he let Jacobs bat against RHP? Does he use Soria for more than just the 9th inning? Does he ask Butler to bunt? This kind of question was academic in the past, but now it may actually matter. Especially if the Royals add a free-agent of the Sheets/Furcal class, we may be about to find out what Hillman is made of.

I look forward to your commentary throughout the winter, Rany, and I'm really starting to look forward to the summer of 2009.

November 21, 2008 at 4:43 PM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

Gotta say I don't like this trade and feel about it pretty much the same way I did about the Jacobs trade, that he gave up a useful middle reliever to get someone who is only a marginal upgrade to what the Royals already had available.

Crisp hasn't been very good offensively for 3 years now and the defensive metrics show he's only been above average defensively in CF for 1 season ever.

Maier's EqR translations from last year in AAA is not much different from Crisp's actual EqR last year and this was his best offensive year since 05. I really don't see there being a 6 million dollar difference between the two of them.

Meanwhile, DM has traded 3 relievers who combined to pitch for about 150 innings of sub 3 ERA ball last year. Yes, DM can find relievers (mostly by just bringing in a ton of different ones and seeing which ones pan out), but its going to be tough for him to deplete the bullpen that much and be able to replenish it. He's banking alot on Yabuta getting alot better next year.

Hopefully DM hasn't depleted a strength of this team just to get slightly better at places where we were going to be better than last year anyways.

November 21, 2008 at 5:10 PM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

One thing does bother me about these moves, though: opportunity cost. Might we have been better off spending all this money in one big pop than taking on salary in trades a little at a time? A Shealy/Jacobs platoon at 1B could be productive, but I still think there's something to be said for throwing an Adam Dunn at the problem instead. And don't get me started on the continuing cost of the Guillen signing. We could have Bobby Abreu or at least Milton Bradley for that kind of money is GMDM had shown a little patience last year.

It's clear that on the whole Moore is doing a good job. However, the fact that his good moves have us on the verge of fielding a quality team makes swallowing the mistakes all the more bitter.

November 21, 2008 at 5:28 PM

Blogger Bill said...

i agree with everyone's statistical analysis of dm's offseason moves. and i respect obp and babip, and all that.

but i think one thing that stat wonks also sometimes miss the big picture.

there's more than one way to build a winning ball team, and dmgm might just be doing it his way.

it's hard to deny that next year's roster, even the way it stands today, will be significantly better than last.

that means .500 ball folks. and better yet, that means that winning is expected. when was the last time that people SERIOUSLY expected the royals to win.

for once, it's not just the typical royals gm saying, "____ has a winning mindset," when the rest of the team sucks.

coco makes our team better, boys and girls.

November 21, 2008 at 10:38 PM

Blogger Unknown said...

I don't know if I fully agree with the assessment that Coco Crisp only adds three wins. If I was reading that correctly, that only takes his offense into account. It's been mentioned several times in this post how strong his defensive skills are, and how strong our entire outfield might be with DeJesus/Crisp/Guillen. The addition of Crisp to our outfield could make it one of the game's best. A powerful outfield like that can boost every pitcher's confidence and success. To me, it seems this is what the Cardinals consistently do and why they consistently compete with less than mediocre pitching. I see Crisp as having significantly more value. I agree, we may have overpaid for him, considering that team Ram-Rom isn't arbitration eligible for a few years, but I think Crisp plugs several of our holes very nicely. Especially with some of our flyball pitchers, a strong outfield could make a world of difference. Guys like Bannister, who have excellent control but depend on their outfield, should be especially thrilled about this trade. I don't know how to do the math on it, but I'd guess hes much more valuable than an extra win and a half over Ramirez.

November 22, 2008 at 12:55 AM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

i think we've killed the coco/ram-ram debate.

anyone see the latest teahen/cubs rumor? apparently we want sean marshall and mike fontenot. i'd gladly take both! that would be quite the haul for teahen.

thoughts?

November 24, 2008 at 3:34 PM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

I'm pretty sure it's Marshall OR Fontenot, not both. I can't imagine the Cubs would give up both for Teahen.

Giving up middle relief pitching for a starting CF is always good. RamRam had a great season last year, but who's to say he's going to repeat it? We just might have traded the guy for a proven CF right before he hit the wall.

November 24, 2008 at 5:04 PM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

It's not both....it's one or the other. If the Cubs give us both than they deserve to lose for another 250 years or whatever the streak is.

November 24, 2008 at 5:04 PM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

I'd take either one of those guys for Teahen. I'd rather throw in Pena or German and get both. I think German and Teahen for Marshall and Fontenot is fair. That way they pick up a ton of versatility. I don't think I'm too biased. Does anyone know if Fontenot can play some 3rd if Gordon were to get hurt?

November 24, 2008 at 5:08 PM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

Your blog keeps getting better and better! Your older articles are not as good as newer ones you have a lot more creativity and originality now keep it up!

January 4, 2010 at 5:58 PM

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