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Post a Comment On: Rany on the Royals

"For Want Of A Pitcher."

31 Comments -

1 – 31 of 31
Blogger Royals said...

Come on, Man! We were supposed to discuss free agent and trade targets this post. We all know Hochevar, Paulino, Duffy and possibly Chen return. We all know Mendoza isn't real and that Crow sucked after the break. Let's get to the good stuff. Let's talk about who we should target in a trade and what it would realistically take. Screw Grantland.....the Royals are the top priority.

October 4, 2011 at 2:44 PM

Blogger Kyle said...

I always look forward to your pieces, but they are too far between. For the Royals to have success next year, they need to pickup a #1 or two #3 pitchers. If Hoch, Duffy, Paulino, Chen, Mendoza/Monty/Crow/Teaford/SOS/Mazzaro is your rotation, you are going to give up a lot of runs. But if your rotation is #1, Hoch, Duffy, Paulino, Chen or even Hoch, Duffy, #3, #3, Paulino would be better.

I agree, there is not much on the FA market. Maybe Edwin Jackson? Maybe Mark Beurhle? The trade market is MUCH better, but how much do you give up? It will take 3 of the top 10 prospects to get anything of substance. And anything less than that, probably isn't going to improve the team.

Give us Myers, Dwyer, Colon for Shields/Billingsly/Gio/Beachy? Maybe. But I think Myers, Odorizzi, Monty, Cuthbert should be untouchables.

October 4, 2011 at 2:48 PM

Blogger KHAZAD said...

Great Article. I enjoyed the indictment of Teflon Bob, who still seems to have the support of most fans even after he is gone. One note: this is the 3rd time in Mcclure's 6 year tenure that the Royals have given up the most walks.

I am looking forward to your analysis of the free agent possibilities. While the pickings are slim, even if the team is unable to pick up a frontline pitcher, they should look to pick up starting pitching in the off season.

As you said, improving the starting pitching is the hurdle we must clear before contention, which makes this a very interesting off season. I am worried that Dayton will count on too many of the maybes and not be aggressive enough. Even if our pickups are also maybes, I would like to have more arrows in the quiver in hopes of having enough of them to find 5 good ones.

October 4, 2011 at 2:51 PM

Blogger Michael said...

Personally, I don't think anyone is untouchable for the right guy. I'd give up 5 more years of Hosmer for 3 years of Felix Hernandez, for example. I wouldn't give that much up for a guy like Wandy Rodriguez though. It all depends on who's available and what it would take to get them.

October 4, 2011 at 4:38 PM

Blogger Michael said...

I have to agree with Royals though...we all know what we have in-house, and their flaws. We all want the scoop on who might be available for trade or who you see them targeting in the FA market (Edwin Jackson?). I got all excited to see a new article, and then found nothing there I didn't already know... :(

October 4, 2011 at 4:40 PM

Blogger Michael said...

I have to agree with Royals though...we all know what we have in-house, and their flaws. We all want the scoop on who might be available for trade or who you see them targeting in the FA market (Edwin Jackson?). I got all excited to see a new article, and then found nothing there I didn't already know... :(

October 4, 2011 at 4:40 PM

Blogger JD said...

Correction: Holland started 7 games for Wilmington in 2008. I remember that during those seven starts he had very good peripherals but an ERA around 5ish

October 4, 2011 at 6:55 PM

Blogger Danny said...

"But unless his new delivery involves manually inserting a horseshoe up his ass on every pitch, I don’t see how it’s helping."

Well, there goes the secret McClure blueprint for success.

Good to read RoR again. I enjoyed the Grantland NLDS breakdown, but Royals stuff is my oxygen.

Worth noting: Mazzaro probably deserves more credit than just being called a mistake. He had command issues and struggled in limited MLB time, but his K rate was good in AAA. Sure, his BB rate was bad, but it is more likely to get command than better stuff. He seems like a closer comp to Phil Humber than Luis Mendoza. I wouldn't be surprised if Vinny has a decent-good season in a couple years. Then again, that means little for the Royals reality.

BTW, the KC Star has run down trade options. In fact, a few places have suggested options since it seems that is the way to go. What hasn't been well suggested are the pieces that could be moved--so far, a lot of "untouchable" talk that is realistically foolish. I think your unique insight on player value would be appreciated universally by readership.

October 4, 2011 at 7:10 PM

Blogger LastRoyalsFan said...

I want to see more before writing off Luis Mendoza. His 2011 performance in AAA and his September starts in KC may be a fluke. It is also possible he has truly 'figured it out' this season, and his stats will continue to improve with experience.

There are several analogues for this concept on the current Royals roster; look no further than all three outfield positions. I'm not saying Mendoza is the real thing, just that the rush to write him off sounds eerily similar to the comments made this winter/spring about Melky Cabrera and Jeff Francoeur.

October 4, 2011 at 9:33 PM

Blogger Reb Moti said...

Time to trade Soria, put Holland or Herrera in there. The Artist Formerly Known as the Mexicutioner is about to fall off a cliff, performance-wise.

October 4, 2011 at 11:15 PM

Blogger Kyle said...

Michael, Hernandez or Kershaw or Josh Johnson or Roy Halladay would be nice, but I'm sure their respective teams consider them untouchable. For the SP the Royals will receive, I think that Myers, Monty, Odorizzi, and Cuthbert are untouchables. Pretty much any of the BP arms are in play, and any other prospect.

Can they get a #3 for the AAA leftovers? Cabrera/Cain, C.Robinson, and Mendoza/SOS/Mazzaro for someone like Anabel Sanchez/Chris Volstad or Jordan Zimmerman/Tom Gorzelanny?

I'm sure they could throw out Myers/Monty, Adam/Ventura, Eibner/Fletcher, and Smith/Marks for someone closer to ACE material. Or I also read that the Braves might be in salary dump mode, so Lowe (15mil) and Beach/Minor might be had for a Myers or Odorizzi type return.

October 5, 2011 at 8:30 AM

Blogger Michael said...

Actually, Kyle, there have been rumblings that Felix Hernandez could be had for the right price. The others, yes, i agree, are probably not going anywhere.

Do we have what it takes to get King Felix? I'm not sure, but it doesn't hurt to pick up the phone and make a call. One can dream, right?

October 5, 2011 at 9:23 AM

Blogger Kyle said...

I don't know how the Mariners roster is constructed, but the Royals farm system is still pretty stacked. I'm sure a trade for 3 years of Felix would have to start with Myers AND Monty. And probably also include 2 more from the top 15. Would that be enough? Would it be worth it? Any of the postion players that debuted this year "should" be untouchables though. Why trade one problem for another.

October 5, 2011 at 10:02 AM

Blogger Antonio. said...

Because they're not established and Felix is..? And that brings up your question of "is it worth it," because you really have to wonder. We do need the pitching, of course, but I still feel like we're far enough away that you have to wonder if certain of these players are going to develop... After all, other than Hosmer, I'm not sure I'd consider any of these debuting rookies to be a "sure thing" and we could be trading away very important depth should they start to falter.

October 5, 2011 at 10:08 AM

Blogger Tampa Mike said...

I agree 100% with McClure. I wanted him gone after he tried to pitch Meche's arm off. He seemed to have a little success, but Hoch, Davies, and Bannister didn't stand up long.

The real killer for me came earlier this season with Soria's struggles. Soria was having a rebound in form and said he was trying to develop a cutter and it was interfering with his other pitches. McClure came out and said he had noticed the problem, but didn't want to tell Soria to drop the pitch because of all his success. Seriously? Too good to coach? That just shows he is an incompetent coach and nothing more than a mound visitor.

October 5, 2011 at 10:53 AM

Blogger Dooblay said...

What does everyone think of Ethan Hollingsworth? I get the feeling that he is likely another Mazzaro, but his Minorleague stats arent godawful (not great either)...Also, who are the likely Braves org candidates for PC? Is their anyone around the league that is a clear upgrade from McClure and available or does Doug Henry get a shot?...tawk amongst yourselves.

October 5, 2011 at 10:57 AM

Blogger Kyle said...

Rick Knapp was brought in as the organizational pitching coach a couple of weeks ago. I have a feeling he will get a look. Solid choice, in my opinion. Not sure who else is out there though.

Antonio, what trade are you thinking about then? Hernandez is going to be pricy. Do you think they are interested in Moustakas? Or Gordon? Or Butler? I just don't see any of those trades happening. Weaken another position everyday to strengthen the SP every 5th day, doesn't make sense to me.

October 5, 2011 at 11:11 AM

Blogger Antonio. said...

No, I think they are going to trade prospects. I'm just not sure that it's the wisest move. Also, the whole weakening one position to fill a hole actually doesn't make sense...the collective whole of the offense is far and away greater than the pitching...and that's even with half-seasons of undeveloped rookies. So I think we could trade away from our offense to fill a hole in the rotation and still end up with a better offense with full seasons from the likes of Moose/Johnny G/Perez... Or even if there wasn't obvious progress from the offense, I think that if we ended up with a 100 OPS+ as a collective team in order to get our 92-94 ERA+ up to 100 (or near it), we'll end up closer to a .500 team in 2012.

October 5, 2011 at 11:54 AM

Blogger Michael said...

I would package Myers and Monty in a deal for Felix. Every day of the week in fact.

Of the kids to make the big leagues this year, I think the most tradeable are Johnny G and the bullpen arms. I wouldn't trade more than one bullpen arm, though. Good bullpens aren't always easy to find, as we found out a couple years ago when we traded away a pretty good bullpen for Mike Jacobs and Coco Crisp.

October 5, 2011 at 12:05 PM

Blogger Kyle said...

Felix is good, but will cost to keep past the 2-3 years he has left on his contract. I know prospects are all hope and dreams, but Monty is VERY close and Myers isn't far off to being in the MLB. Trade away two players 6 years of maybe to get 2-3 years of most likely, is that worth it? I don't watch Felix every night like I do the Royals, so I only have his numbers to look at. And they are good, but he does play in Safeco half the time, does that matter?

October 5, 2011 at 1:42 PM

Blogger Michael said...

Would I trade that package of "maybes" for 3 years of a known quantity in Felix Hernandez?? Heck yeah! We all think these guys will be studs, but they won't. Some come up and rake right away like Eric Hosmer, some struggle like Justin Smoak, Alex Gordon, Mike Moustakas, etc. With King Felix, we know what we'd be getting. We'd be getting a stud Cy Young caliber pitcher. Then, when he walks, we'd get 2 top draft picks. I think it's well worth the risk.

As for park factors, without actually looking up the numbers, I'd guess that Safeco isn't much more of a pitcher's park than Kauffman.

October 5, 2011 at 7:30 PM

Blogger Mark said...

People need to stop complaining about Rany's covering what we have before he looks at what we might get. One of the reasons we all read this blog is Rany's precision and thoughtfulness.

Also, trading Odorizzi would be a bug, big mistake.

October 5, 2011 at 7:42 PM

Blogger Antonio. said...

I would trade a lot for Felix, but my hesitance again comes with wanting to give the younger players more room for growth. They could use it for sure. What happens if we trade Monty/Myers/Colon/Pina/Holland for Hernandez and Duffy/Cain/Giavotella fall on their ass and Perez' offense is a mirage and Frenchy goes back to Frenchy of old? That's a very real scenario. To back up Duffy, we'd have Odorizzi/Dwyer/Lamb (few Double-A innings/ineffective/injured); we'd have low-OBP, doesn't know how to use his speed Robinson for Cain, we'd have Falu for Giavotella and we'd have 4-5 years of waiting for Starling...and little hope for catching. I'm not saying it's a likely scenario, but it's not unheard of...if we trade a lot of depth to get this starter (and Hernandez is one of the few you can risk for...one of the very few) and then we witness a fair amount of attrition, the pool gets pretty shallow pretty quick. A guy on Royalboard put forth the idea of getting free agent (Jackson) and then seeing where we are at the deadline. Not the worst of ideas...give the kids another four months.

October 5, 2011 at 9:07 PM

Blogger Jayboid said...

Thanks Rany! I realize how busy you must be and still give us a freebee of this quality.

Maybe the worst is over and blue sky is coming.

I really enjoyed watching players who seemed to want to be here. Frenchy explained how much he liked KC, Moose chatting about the future, Omaha kids talking about the team not just getting to the bigs.

This makes the memories of Grudzelanik??? and others frowning and complaining through a season begin to fade.

October 6, 2011 at 6:40 AM

Blogger Michael said...

Antonio, I like the idea of going after Edwin Jackson. But I'm in the camp of "we need two pitchers" who are better than anyone we have right now. If that's getting Edwin Jackson and trading for Chad Billingsley, then great! As long as we get two pitchers of good quality, I'll be happy.

October 6, 2011 at 9:24 AM

Blogger K.C.Tigerfan said...

Quality free agents aren't coming to Kansas City for what the Royals are willing to pay. Sorry to drop a turd in the punch bowl, but facts are facts. We will have to trade, or get more washed up veterans with no other options and hope that our new pitching coach knows where McClure kept the horse shoes.

And,as a Tiger's fan, Knapp sucks.

October 6, 2011 at 1:30 PM

Blogger Unknown said...

Great post Rany

The projection systems aren't out yet... But my guess is that none of our pitchers outperform expectations, except maybe Paulino. None of our pitchers have high expectations. All of those pitching prospects and we have 0 pitching. Mission 2012 is mission 2013 unless we get Zack back.

October 6, 2011 at 2:37 PM

Blogger Antonio. said...

I think we need to get two as well, but going all in too early is a possibility. If you can get one on the FA market by the time the break comes around, you have a better idea of what to target...or you can get your second guy next off season, when you have an even bettter idea...and it'll be easier to sell an 81-win team or an 84-win team with a stronger idea of its future than a 71-win team selling hopes of unknown quantities and Ex-W/L.

October 6, 2011 at 2:51 PM

Blogger Michael said...

Antonio, the longer we sit and slowly piece this thing together, the closer Billy Butler, Alex Gordon, Eric Hosmer, Mike Moustakas, etc. get to free agency, and that shortens our window considerably to succeed and compete. Now is the time to stop fooling around and waiting for things to happen in our favor. Now is the time to MAKE things happen. Go out, sign a decent free agent starter while trading for another one. Get us two good to very good caliber starters, and all of a sudden our team looks very formidable.

We don't have to sell the farm for someone like Felix to succeed (although I still wouldn't be upset if we did). We could trade something less for Chad Billingsley or Wandy Rodriguez. Or go somewhere in between for James Shields. And if we end up blocking someone like Mike Montgomery, so what. I doubt many Rays fans were unhappy that Matt Moore was blocked most of the season. Having talent in excess is never a bad thing.

October 6, 2011 at 4:20 PM

Blogger Antonio. said...

Billy has three more years to free agency...just like Felix. Gordon has 2 years, but is likely to sign an extension that'll probably also be four years like Butler, Soria, Greinke before him. Hosmer? 2017. Moose? 2017. No reason to include them in the list. Being over aggressive could open the window a bit earlier, but it could also make sure the window doesn't last nearly as long. We're going to trade our right fielder of 2013-2019 because we have Jeff Francoeur and not enough pitching? And Frenchy has one good season in the last four or five and may walk after 2013?

October 6, 2011 at 8:34 PM

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October 7, 2011 at 3:22 AM

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