But don't miss this point: Sullivan, like me, is a Libertarian-conservative. Unlike me, he's maintained a veneer of balance in discussion of the Bush Administration over the past couple of years. (I've known they were clueless since spring '04 and made no efforts to hide my contempt.) When people like Sullivan and the Cato Institute are taking Bush-as-war-criminal seriously, it has legs.
One question that fascinates me is, would any other country have the courage to arrest a present or past US president for war crimes? Unless GWB becomes a homebody, we'll be finding out.
Thanks for stopping by, cynic. I appreciate your insight. Yes, the fact that people like Sullivan and the Cato institute are taking this seriously means something. I especially appreciate the Bush criticism that come from Cato, because its much harder to paint them as "just another liberal Bush-hater".
That would be awesome if another country charged Bush with war crimes. Pretty pathetic that it would take someone else to do it, though. Much better for our country's honor that WE do it ourselves. So on second thought, I hope other countries only indict him after we Americans have had the good sense to do so.
11:09 AM, July 02, 2006
Anonymous said...
Thanks for the comment on my blog.
Regarding torture, I should be absolutely clear that I find it morally abhorrent. Especially for an administration that makes so much of its supposed Christian values, I think that we ought to hold ourselves to higher standards than our enemies.
That said, if there were some evidence that torture helped us one iota, perhaps I could have an interesting (though profoundly depressing) debate with the pro-torture crowd. But when you factor in that it's probably hurting our cause, with anecdotes like the one from Suskind's book reinforcing what we already know about the useless intelligence torture produces.... ARRRGH! It's so infuriating.
It's as though people are channeling feeling pissed off about the threat of terrorism into a desire to just pick some scapegoat of similar race and beat the shit out of him. Certainly being pissed off is understandable, and I would argue even morally justifiable. But responding by descending into wonton violence is hardly a productive way to direct that anger. It's the same sort of "shoot first, ask questions later" bravado that leaves you three years later wondering why your army invaded an unrelated country.
Torture is a nice, safe proxy form of violence that lets people think their anger is being meted out. But it's all behind prison walls and off the record so there's no obligation to come face to face with its consequences. I don't think a clear majority of the country supports torture, but based on my recollection of polls I'm under the impression it has been as high as half. Hopefully as the public grows tired of the rest of the President's bungling that number has decreased by now, but it's pathetic that we even have cause to consider such a political dynamic.
(PS: Do you have an RSS feed for your blog? I'd like to add it to my political agg list.)
It heartens me when people from all parts of the political and religious spectrum speak about the evils and stupidity and uselessness of torture. I agree with your comments totally.
I just added a feedburner feed. You can see the icon at the bottom of the right hand column. The address is:
http://feeds.feedburner.com/InternalMonologue
You can also get the atom feed at:
http://zdrake.blogspot.com/atom.xml
8:14 AM, July 03, 2006
Anonymous said...
I agree inasmuch as "IF" the smirking chimp is going to be cooked for War Crimes, or whatever vernacular is to be used, it ought to be done by our own country, the good ol USA, "IF" worldview honor is an issue in the case.
In spite of all of Bush's horrors, though, I would still remain an advocate for him staying in prison for a good, long time. He's already committed political suicide, and, in the end, I think he may have actually done much of this country a favor by opening up our own, and the world's eyes to the almost impreceivably disgusting levels of corruption, greed, and stupidity with by/with which we allow ourselves to be governed. This pattern is worldwide. Bush just so happens to have brought it to our attention that leadership is as much an epidemic as people who are unable to lead themselves through life.
Thanks for the post, anonymous. I agree Bush seems to be intent on committing political suicide. And Bush has indeed woken people up politically. Me being one of them. If part of Bush's legacy is a more vigilant and skeptical American people, then perhaps there will be some good to come out of his disasterous administration.
2:02 AM, January 05, 2007
Both this Daily Kos diarist and Andrew Sullivan have picked up the LA times editorial I pointed to yesterday. Sullivan also points to a summary of the Hamdan v. Rumsfeld case at the Cato Institute’s blog, which seems to come to the same conclusion.
First of all, I just want to point out that Internal Monologue had this story before both Sullivan and Kos. So nyah-n-nah-n-nah-nah. The second thing I want to point out is that this meme is spreading. Will it spread to a federal prosecutor willing to file an indictment? Let us hope that it does and let us work to keep this meme alive. The Supreme Court ruling makes Bush prosecutable for war crimes.
Indicting Bush and others responsible for the “gulagization” of our imprisonment and interrogation systems would go a long way towards restoring our standing in the world. It would also re-affirm the principles of the rule of law, on which this administration has trampled repeatedly. It would also give this country a chance to have a new administration much earlier, which would hopefully do a better job of running the country than the current one.
Such an indictment would set off an incredible partisan struggle and be divisive, but I’m not willing to pull any legal punches for the sake of politeness to this administration. They certainly have smeared and attacked most savagely and falsely whenever it has suited them. They have taken the concept of “the loyal opposition” and flushed it down the toilet, accusing any who disagree with them of treason and aiding the enemy. This criminal administration deserves to be thrown out of office.
posted by Zachary Drake at 10:21 PM on Jul 1, 2006
"Bush is a War Criminal: notion gains popularity"
6 Comments -
But don't miss this point: Sullivan, like me, is a Libertarian-conservative. Unlike me, he's maintained a veneer of balance in discussion of the Bush Administration over the past couple of years. (I've known they were clueless since spring '04 and made no efforts to hide my contempt.) When people like Sullivan and the Cato Institute are taking Bush-as-war-criminal seriously, it has legs.
One question that fascinates me is, would any other country have the courage to arrest a present or past US president for war crimes? Unless GWB becomes a homebody, we'll be finding out.
3:30 AM, July 02, 2006
Thanks for stopping by, cynic. I appreciate your insight. Yes, the fact that people like Sullivan and the Cato institute are taking this seriously means something. I especially appreciate the Bush criticism that come from Cato, because its much harder to paint them as "just another liberal Bush-hater".
That would be awesome if another country charged Bush with war crimes. Pretty pathetic that it would take someone else to do it, though. Much better for our country's honor that WE do it ourselves. So on second thought, I hope other countries only indict him after we Americans have had the good sense to do so.
11:09 AM, July 02, 2006
Thanks for the comment on my blog.
Regarding torture, I should be absolutely clear that I find it morally abhorrent. Especially for an administration that makes so much of its supposed Christian values, I think that we ought to hold ourselves to higher standards than our enemies.
That said, if there were some evidence that torture helped us one iota, perhaps I could have an interesting (though profoundly depressing) debate with the pro-torture crowd. But when you factor in that it's probably hurting our cause, with anecdotes like the one from Suskind's book reinforcing what we already know about the useless intelligence torture produces.... ARRRGH! It's so infuriating.
It's as though people are channeling feeling pissed off about the threat of terrorism into a desire to just pick some scapegoat of similar race and beat the shit out of him. Certainly being pissed off is understandable, and I would argue even morally justifiable. But responding by descending into wonton violence is hardly a productive way to direct that anger. It's the same sort of "shoot first, ask questions later" bravado that leaves you three years later wondering why your army invaded an unrelated country.
Torture is a nice, safe proxy form of violence that lets people think their anger is being meted out. But it's all behind prison walls and off the record so there's no obligation to come face to face with its consequences. I don't think a clear majority of the country supports torture, but based on my recollection of polls I'm under the impression it has been as high as half. Hopefully as the public grows tired of the rest of the President's bungling that number has decreased by now, but it's pathetic that we even have cause to consider such a political dynamic.
(PS: Do you have an RSS feed for your blog? I'd like to add it to my political agg list.)
5:44 AM, July 03, 2006
It heartens me when people from all parts of the political and religious spectrum speak about the evils and stupidity and uselessness of torture. I agree with your comments totally.
I just added a feedburner feed. You can see the icon at the bottom of the right hand column. The address is:
http://feeds.feedburner.com/InternalMonologue
You can also get the atom feed at:
http://zdrake.blogspot.com/atom.xml
8:14 AM, July 03, 2006
I agree inasmuch as "IF" the smirking chimp is going to be cooked for War Crimes, or whatever vernacular is to be used, it ought to be done by our own country, the good ol USA, "IF" worldview honor is an issue in the case.
In spite of all of Bush's horrors, though, I would still remain an advocate for him staying in prison for a good, long time. He's already committed political suicide, and, in the end, I think he may have actually done much of this country a favor by opening up our own, and the world's eyes to the almost impreceivably disgusting levels of corruption, greed, and stupidity with by/with which we allow ourselves to be governed. This pattern is worldwide. Bush just so happens to have brought it to our attention that leadership is as much an epidemic as people who are unable to lead themselves through life.
7:16 PM, January 04, 2007
Thanks for the post, anonymous. I agree Bush seems to be intent on committing political suicide. And Bush has indeed woken people up politically. Me being one of them. If part of Bush's legacy is a more vigilant and skeptical American people, then perhaps there will be some good to come out of his disasterous administration.
2:02 AM, January 05, 2007