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Blogger Unrepentant Jacobin said...

Another fine post. A few comments:

1. Bernard Lewis talks about the waqf briefly in his book "What Went Wrong: Western Impact and Middle Eastern Response". I'll summarise his thoughts on civil society and secularism briefly.

"[T]he civil society is that part of society, between the family and the state, in which the mainsprings of association, initiative and action are voluntary, determined by opinion or interest or other personal choice, and distinct from - though they may be influenced by - the loyalty owed by birth and the obedience imposed by force. Obvious modern examples are the business corporation, the trade union, the professional association, the learned society, the club or lodge, the sports team and the political party." [Pg 123]

Lewis argues that the modernising C19th autocrats brought many of the waqfs under State control meaning the State now "disposes of new and stronger instruments to control the schools, the media, and in general the printed word." He anticipates this will be progressively undermined by electronic media (the book was published in 2001, just after 9/11).

He argues that because "Islamic Law, unlike Roman Law and its derivatives, does not recognise corporate legal persons, there are therefore no Islamic equivalents to such corporate entities as the city, the monastery, or the college." Instead, Muslim societies were organised around "family, clan, tribe, the faith group, often linked together by membership of a sufi fraternity; the craft group, joined in a guild; the ward or neighbourhood within a city."

It was the penetration of the Islamic world by Western ideas, particularly those of the French Revolution as well as the increase in Muslim students studying in the West that began to introduce secular notions of a civil society as something "desirable or even permissible", and that this entailed the separation of church and state power.

He says, however, that classical Islamic societies were only theocratic to the degree that the UK, say, is a monarchy. Classical Islam had no prelates, priesthood and the Calif was a politician not a theologian. As Lewis points out, the Islamic tolerance of religious minorities compared favourably to their brutal persecution in Christian Spain, for example. But the spread of Western ideas of self-determination led these minorities to start to demand equal rights as opposed to simply toleration and subordinate status. This combined with a decline in Islamic military and cultural power led to a concomitant growth in Islamic insecurity and intolerance, and the post-war rise in Islamic fundamentalism. The office of the Ayatollah is a C19th creation. Khomeinism is a C20th revolutionary innovation.

Lewis concludes: "Secularism in the Christian world was an attempt to resolve the long and destructive struggle of church and state....Looking at the contemporary Middle East, one must ask whether...Muslims and Jews may have caught a Christian disease [theocracy] and might therefore consider a Christian remedy".

2 January 2014 at 14:19

Blogger Unrepentant Jacobin said...

(Cont'd)

2. I've long argued that it makes no sense to talk of "imposing" emancipatory systems. Talk of imposing democracy is as nonsensical as imposing free speech. However emancipation carries with it the corollary of individual responsibility, which for those used to authoritarianism can cause massive culture shock. Perhaps this may help explain the circular nature of the Egyptian revolution? In her two memoirs, Ayaan Hirsi Ali postulates that this is what causes many immigrants to the West from the Muslim world to resist integration in favour of self-segregation and integrism.

3. I was also brought up sharply by the bracketing of "(aside from destroying Israel)". This appears to be a not-too subtle variation on the bigotry of low expectations. To wit: "Well, to expect the Islamic world to get over its Jew hatred is too much to ask..." the unspoken conclusion being "given the injustice of the nakba, the occupation, colonialism etc". This seems to me to be the same reason by self-described progressives like Ken Livingstone seem to have no problem sharing a platform with those like Qaradawi who promote and valorize suicide terror against Jewish civilians.

2 January 2014 at 14:20

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4 January 2014 at 08:30

Anonymous MazMHussain said...

I read this book by Kurzmann a few years back and found it to be an enjoyable read whose central thesis largely rang true. You’ve done a nuanced analysis of the work, but I have to question the basis of your belief that American foreign policy is not a contributing factor to terrorism. As Kurzmann says, the demand for terrorism may be ‘inelastic’, but he also uses a particularly narrow definition of terrorism to include only the nihilistic, ideological variety favoured parties such as Al Qaeda and the Woolwich killers. If you class all violence committed against American interests around the world – including against military and political interests in Iraq and elsewhere as terrorism – then it would seem that the demand is almost perfectly elastic. There was a state hostile to U.S. interests in power in Iraq pre-2003, but there were essentially no Iraqi citizens taking up arms against U.S. interests because they had no impetus to.

Either way, most people are not nihilists and regardless of circumstances would not sign up for a quixotic crusade such as advocated by Bin Laden and his fellow travelers, but I think you are remiss to say that military action does not embitter public opinion against the United States and lead many people in affected countries to take up arms against U.S. interests there. This is not terrorism in a transnational sense (and I reject that people such as the Adebalajo (sic) use it as a justification for their own heinous actions), but it is terrorism inasmuch as the word is defined as hostility to Western interests. Forgive his levity on the subject as he is a comedian, but I have to defer to David Cross in part about this issue of what drives terrorism (even OBL’s kind to a limited degree): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EM202BVLf78

I returned to Egypt during the run-up to Morsi’s election in 2012, and part of my purpose there was to interview youth activists who had taken part in the Jan25 revolution. These were young, liberal, secular people – disdainful of both the regime and the Muslim Brotherhood - and the people whom you would ostensibly consider as the natural constituency for being pro-America anywhere in the Muslim world. Remarkably though (not remarkable to me btw), they were not. I’m not a fan of broad generalizations but I feel relatively confident in saying that there is no meaningful group of people anywhere on the ideological spectrum in Egypt who ‘likes’ America (to a lesser extent the same is true in Pakistan). There are people who are indifferent to it, or who think it can be manipulated to achieve certain objectives, but the common refrain when the subject comes up is: “They sided against us in two wars and supported mass-murder of our neighbors, why should we like them?”. You have to do some great circumambulations to avoid this logic, which I see you’ve attempted to do in other circumstances (OBL was popular among Muslims because they believe he DIDN’T do 9/11?). This isn’t terrorism, but it is a microcosm of a broader phenomenon where American foreign policy has completely poisoned the well of public opinion against America throughout the Muslim world, and for eminently practical reasons. Some percentage of people will take this to its ultimate consequence and take up arms over it. It is actually a bit remarkable that you believe otherwise.

4 January 2014 at 08:31

Anonymous MazMHussain said...

To a poll showing that publics in many Muslim countries support democracy you say: “This is should be the first riposte to those who claim that we cannot ‘impose democracy’: it is not an imposition, it is giving the people what they want.” I hope you can appreciate how closely related the ideas of self-determination and democracy and thus how foolish a statement this is. While ~70% of Saudis may support democracy in their own country this does not equate to supporting a foreign military invasion and occupation of their country to depose their government and thus ‘give them what they want’. They would certainly be more supportive of civil society initiatives and ideological support for the cause of democracy, but this is vastly different from what has been prescribed and practiced in many other countries by the U.S in recent years. Not many people get to make a $4 trillion dollar mistake that kills hundreds of thousands of people and creates millions of refugees (Iraq), but it would behoove you to at least learn from that experience than to continue to hold such disturbingly myopic views.

You make a few more deeply questionable points which I feel deserve some comment. Regarding the Afghan war, most Muslim countries in the region supported this action (I also supported it at the time) and there were rational reasons to do so. But ‘because the Taliban have global ambitions’ is not one of them. You are obviously an intelligent person so I’m not sure how you can use this as a justification with a straight face. The United States both had to confront Al Qaeda (then based in Afghanistan) but also had a need to project power and for messaging purposes after the mass atrocity perpetrated on 9/11. This is a defensible reason to go to war, and one which most people around the world sympathized with. However that the Taliban were a military power with aims of global domination is not a similarly logical reason; this is a laughable suggestion that it would be best to abandon in future.

On Iran, Obama did not forcefully speak out during the 2009 election, but it is a bit of narcissism to think that if he had this would have somehow been deeply important. While the U.S. may have a hostile relationship with the IRI, it is a mistake to think that the Green Movement was markedly sympathetic to American interests in the Middle East. Mousavi himself was a prominent supporter of its nuclear program and someone who was broadly demonized by American neoconservatives until he emerged as a potentially useful figure to them in that episode. There were no magic words Obama could have said to change the situation there because the conflict had little to do with America; but more importantly there is not really anyone on the ideological spectrum today who sympathizes with American politics in the region.
Also you seem to make a very curious conflation between fostering civil society groups and embarking on military confrontations against Muslim majority countries. They are not the same thing, and it is dangerous and counterproductive to suggest that they might be. The United States absolutely should foster civil society and business ties in the Muslim world, because this is both in its interests and also because it is the best means of helping foster democracy. Aside from engendering resentment and creating humanitarian devastation, invasions and bombing campaigns tend to promote zero-sum politics in the countries which are subjected to them. This is not conducive to the growth of a democratic polity, and in fact is prohibitive of it. Kurzmann is absolutely right that Muslim liberals suffer the second-hand smoke of these policies; in fact they are utterly suffocated by them. If you want to know want some reading on what type of ‘intervention’ might actually be helpful, I urge you to read this book by David Rohde: http://www.amazon.com/Beyond-War-Reimagining-American-Influence/dp/0670026441/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1388852168&sr=1-1&keywords=beyond+war

4 January 2014 at 08:33

Anonymous MazMHussain said...

Finally, while Al Qaeda has never been broadly popular in the Muslim world I actually harbour some fear that this is beginning to change. The group has gone from a small ideological movement into a broader military one that today controls entire cities in Yemen, Iraq and Syria; and its influence appears to be metastasizing. After 10 years of open warfare in the Muslim-majority countries most of them are now more torn with violence and radicalism than they have been at any time since modernity. I fail to see a single democratic result produced from any Western military action, and none seem to be on the horizon. As such, I urge you to reflect critically on the woefully misbegotten views espoused here.

4 January 2014 at 08:33

Blogger Mugwump said...

Hi Murtaza, thanks again for your comments and for giving me an excuse to avoid revision for a Monday exam.

Unfortunately, I feel the bulk of your comments are either misrepresentations and misunderstandings of my post. I'll try to handle everything you've stated in the order you went through it:

1. I'm afraid it is just simply wrong to suggest that he doesn't include all relevant forms of violence. He does and he makes a distinction - and they support his conclusion of inelasiticity (though, as I mentioned above, I reach a different conclusion on the basis of empirical studies reference in the links I’ve provided). If you look at this post you'll see an assessment of the data which suggests that it is elastic: http://anonymousmugwump.blogspot.co.uk/2012/08/blowback-against-blowback.html

2. You state "I think you are remiss to say that military action does not embitter public opinion against the United States and lead many people in affected countries to take up arms against U.S. interests there." I don't think it prudent for you to make such a statement without having read my detailed posts on the subject. In this post I simply reference my view - I do not aim to prove it as I have addressed it and wont repeat what I've said - feel free to respond on those articles (including the one above):

http://anonymousmugwump.blogspot.co.uk/2013/05/blowback-against-glenn-greenwald-1.html

http://anonymousmugwump.blogspot.co.uk/2013/05/torts-and-wrongs.html

http://anonymousmugwump.blogspot.co.uk/2013/10/droning-on-amnesty-and-efficacy-of.html

4 January 2014 at 14:12

Blogger Mugwump said...

3. Your next paragraph (beginning with your trip to Egypt) simply doesn’t contradict anything I said. I planned to write another section about why anti-Americanism is so high in the Middle East but the post was already 5,000 words. I have no real issue in stating that it M.E Muslims feel aggrieved with Western policy (I would disagree with them) but it’s simply an empirical fact that they are anti-American. The point, which I make in the links provided above, is that is completely unfounded, illogical and offensive to suggest a jump from being aggrieved to becoming a terrorist.

4. You state “I hope you can appreciate how closely related the ideas of self-determination and democracy and thus how foolish a statement this is.” This is simply a misunderstanding of the data. It is not just on questions of ‘support for democracy’ but on the *specifics* of democracy like competitive elections and pluralism. Both Kurzman and I provide numerous and distinct sources for that proposition.

5. You have mistaken my claim about imposition: I am not making a claim about Western military policy *imposing democracy*. I am talking about moral philosophy and cultural relativism – which is why if you follow the footnote you’ll see a discussion on that. In this post I make no claims about military action and democracy and wont make this discussion any longer by talking about your misrepresentation.

6. You state that “there were rational reasons to [support the war in Afghanistan]. But ‘because the Taliban have global ambitions’ is not one of them.” This is yet another misrepresentation for multiple reasons. First, I am not talking about why anyone – Afghan, Muslim or otherwise - supported the war, I am simply talking about the Taliban’s ideology. Second, I am not talking about justifications for the war – the whole point of that paragraph is that Kurzman has downplayed their global ties. I am not suggesting that they have aims of ‘global domination’ (another misrepresentation) – in fact, I make that point clearly in the last sentence.

7. I don’t have many disagreements with your paragraph on Iran – but thats because it doesn’t really undermine anything I said.

8. You state that I “conflation between fostering civil society groups and embarking on military confrontations against Muslim majority countries” – I do no such thing: the points about terrorism and military action are in one section and civil society in two different section. See point 5.

9. I have seen no statistical evidence that *support* amongst the M.E Muslim population for AQ is rising. The trend is clear – outlined in this post and Kurzman’s post.

Thanks again for your comment.

4 January 2014 at 14:13

OpenID laylamurad said...

The vast majority of Muslims don't like al-Qaeda... because the vast majority don't believe it exists. If we don't engage with Muslim activists in Muslim-majority countries who have progressive, critically thought out views on politics, culture, etc.... then, anti-Americanism & conspiracy theories will inevitably pervade through even intelligentsia. That saves all the stats, nuance, pedant and intellectual masturbation.

5 January 2014 at 18:30

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