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Blogger Tomek said...

Thanks for this interesting essay. Am I right Jayarava thinking that what you call “falling in love” in Buddhist context is pretty much the same what Glenn means by "decision", especially in its affective mode?

Friday, June 22, 2012

Blogger Wappy said...

Another good one, thanks Jayarava. Your essays help me take a step back and take inventory of my beliefs. They have certainly gone a long way in helping me to simplify my practice. Very sorry to see you are winding down the blog.

Friday, June 22, 2012

Blogger sophrosyne said...

Jayarava,

This reminds me of the Buddha's injunction to disenchantment and dispassion. I remember becoming disenchanted with Buddhism. It happened gradually as I studied more and more history. The absolute truths gained historical context and variability. No longer were they transcendental; they were often reactions to what came before.

Please don't stop posting. Your blog posts resonate with me so deeply. You seem to have the most wonderful combination of scholarship and practice, and you provide something that can't be found anywhere else online.

Friday, June 22, 2012

Blogger Jayarava said...

@Tomek

I don't know Glenn's jargon very well and this term "decision" not at all. He and I tend to have very different assumptions so I'd be cautious about guessing. What do you think?

Jayarava

Friday, June 22, 2012

Blogger Jayarava said...

Well it interesting to see people delurking at this late stage when I am already tired and jaded and beyond really caring. A bit late guys. I appreciate the present positivity, but where have you been all these years? Too little, too late.

I'm just back from doing an intro to Buddhist ethics for 8 people. So refreshing to talk with passion about my experience of practice, and to have the immediate feedback of face to face communication. The internet is so anonymous and sterile. Most people don't use their names, don't use pictures of themselves, and don't sign their comments. The whole thing is abstract and impersonal and the longer I do it the more alienated I feel. It cannot be healthy, at least not for me!

Everyone log off now and go and talk to a real person. Stop reading this rubbish! It doesn't matter. And go and meet your elected representative and tell them about your ideal society. They are the only ones who can change the rules.

Friday, June 22, 2012

Blogger Tomek said...

Jayarava, you mentioned at least one of the terms from his heuristic in your essay, so I thought that maybe you might know his central term, namely “decision”. When you write that “You can't prove something wrong to a believer, because if what you say is contradictory then it is not salient!" it reminds me about Glenn's describing “Buddhist” as someone “who has performed a psychologically charged determination that Buddhism provides thaumaturgical refuge. In this sense, decision is an emotional reliance on or hopefulness for the veracity of Buddhist teachings. As such, affective decision violates the methodological spirit of all legitimate knowledge systems, weather in the sciences or in the humanities.” And earlier he writes, that “Buddhists (…) are incapable of discerning the decisional structure that informs their affiliation because of admittance to affiliation ensues from a blinding condition: reflexivity”. (“Nascent Speculative Non-Buddhism”, p. 5-6) So according to what he says, first is this hopefulness of people that, as you write “are looking for a solution to some problem” and then when suddenly they happen to find Buddhist teachings (Glenn's thaumaturgical refuge) they “fall in love with them”, as you say or make a “decision” as says Glenn, that those teachings constitute for them veracity. This affective acceptance of Buddhist teachings enforce the “decisional structure” which is synonymous with reflexivity or even with hyper-reflexivity, which is, I guess the very basis of principle of sufficient Buddhism, which in turn partially leads to the difficulties to “prove something wrong to the believer”. In other words, I think that the saliency you talk about is beyond the reach of Buddhist because s/he might be blinded by the very reflexivity, that in the first place guards the affective core of the decision.

Friday, June 22, 2012

Blogger Swanditch said...

Jayarava,

Well I've been here for years now, commenting positively for the most part, and frankly I couldn't agree more with your assessment of internet debate. I've reduced my participation in cyberarguments dramatically in the last year because I was finding it caused only stress - literal physical tension in my body, not to mention cyclic angry thoughts, all to no discernible purpose.

Your body of essays is already an enormous contribution and if you feel you're done, then there's no reason to drag it out. Nekhamma is a virtue, after all, and a pleasure too.

Thank you for your work in presenting genuine knowledge of the texts in a graspable form. May you and all people attain deeply.

PS I just reread your essay above, replacing all instances of "Buddhism" and "Buddhist" with "Islam" and "Muslim", and making other necessary changes - good thing there are no Buddhist suicide bombers! :D

Friday, June 22, 2012

Blogger Jayarava said...

Hi Swanditch

All credit to you. Yes, you have consistently engaged with the process and written stimulating and informative replies. I wish I had a couple more readers of your calibre and consistency. Though I still don't know your name, your nationality or anything about you!

It's become increasingly clear that Buddhist religious belief is just religious belief. Frankly I'm unsure where that leaves me. But yes at least we have no suicide bombers, yet. Suicide is increasingly been seen as a political weapon in Tibet, and it's not far from that to taking a few Han with you when you go!

But after 10 years or so of living in a bubble I suddenly seem to be awake to the cries of the world and have a strong desire to respond. I'm hoping to organise a showing of the film The Four Horseman in my town (preferably at our Buddhist centre). I have an appointment to meet my MP early next month. Hopefully something will unfold.

I'll post another 6 or 7 essays, so it will be fading away rather than burning out.

Best Wishes
Jayarava

Friday, June 22, 2012

Blogger jonckher said...

hi jayarava

Great post. I've been thinking along the same lines myself and I reckon you've nailed it: it is love and all of the resulting complexities.

The idealisation/honeymoon period is pretty much what I've seen in myself and in others. If nothing else, Glenn's blog has helped me see that for what it is. IMO, your single post is lots more accessible, acceptable to an x-buddhist and to the point. Perhaps it would even elicit a response from Mr Batchelor!

Anyway, I'm not entirely sure where to take my faith (and I'm pretty comfortable with that label) next - I'm certainly going to keep with the emotional / cultural / practice side of things but intellectually, I'm probably going to have a period of separation (with the exception of a couple of blogs).

Community/sangha wise, I'm finding it difficult to hang out with love-struck x-buddhists. I get the urge to lecture. I find the tiny online community of mid-life crisis struck Buddhists comforting. And i think that's the primary benefit of the on-line stuff. I agree that face-to-face is preferable where they exist. But so far, I have not found a similar collection of disenchanted Buddhists to hang out with in real-life. Maybe they are out in my sangha but wisely keeping silent about it.

Also, it might be that the level of engagement you've had so far is unsatisfactory because you've been ahead of your time - my feel/hope is that the popularity of SecBud is going to generate a lot more quality buddhists with an open mind, once they get through the honeymoon. Assuming they stay on that is after and don't just file for a divorce.

Anyway, your ten year effort is impressive and excellent and so long as you don't actually delete this blog (i'd like to have the time to attempt to read it all), you've certainly got every right to retire. I've checked out your Steve Keen blog (economics is a pet interest of mine too) so I'm assuming that you do not mean leaving the interwebs.

cheers

Monday, June 25, 2012

Blogger bert whoami said...

"A bit late guys. I appreciate the present positivity, but where have you been all these years? Too little, too late."

I like to glance through your writings. Many articles I read beginning to end, some I don't. I'm one of your silent readers I suppose. How many more there are, you could check in google analytics.

But you are right, why not meet in person.

Tuesday, June 26, 2012

Blogger elisa freschi said...

Dear Jayarava,
from a lot of what you say, you seem to imply something like:

Buddhism is just like any other religion, i.e., it is self-verifying and cannot be falsified. In other words, it is by definition irrational.

However, your next step seems to be:

Clinging to Buddhist dogmas goes against the "original spirit of Buddhism" (my wording), which is anti-dogmatic and says to get rid of the raft once you have used it.

Thus, in order to be genuinely Buddhist, you have to relinquish Buddhism-as-a-dogma and embrace Buddhism-as-a-dynamism.

Am I right? If so, what would you answer to the criticism that you are yourself embracing some sort of Perennial Buddhism (although in a dynamic form)? I do not think that this is necessarily a flaw, but I cannot avoid asking the question, after having read the beginning of your post with the 5 points.

(I am happy comments are open again!)

yours elisa

Wednesday, June 27, 2012

Blogger Jayarava said...

Hi Elisa

"...you are yourself embracing some sort of Perennial Buddhism."

Yes. The dogma of no dogmas. Which is a contradiction of sorts.

I suppose it grows out of two things. A belief in our unlimited potential to learn. And a belief that certainty makes learning new things difficult. Both of which grow out of a life time of learning. I've seen my job as creating uncertainty about dogmas - at times I have unnerved even myself by doing this.

I try to embrace the principles of Buddhism, rather than the dogmas.

I am not someone who says if you meditate you will get enlightened. I have no idea if that is true. But I can tell you, with the confidence of both personal experience and close observation of others over 20 years, that if you sit quietly and comfortably and gently follow your breath with unbroken attention then something very interesting begins to happen in the body and mind.

And so for the other practices I do or have done, including study. Each one produces interesting changes. Study unexpectedly produced faith in me for instance, and a commitment to principles rather than dogmas.

We have myths, legends and stories because this is how we contextualise the experience of the exercises. But religious people deify the stories, and make them sacred and holy. We make them dogmas. Then they can never be wrong, and no one can ever learn a new thing from the exercises. We stop paying attention to what is actually happening, and start looking for confirmation of our dogmas instead.

And most of the time we set people up for failure by using these dogmas to create unrealistic expectations of the exercises. And we make adoption of dogmas a condition of group membership.

It's as we (Buddhists in general) say that if you go jogging you'll get fitter (which is true); and that if you only apply yourself you'll win the Olympic gold medal (which might be true). Though of course no one actually has a medal, but in our art the saints all wear them. We make it clear that only the gold medal counts, that silver doesn't really count. If only everyone went jogging the world would be a better place and we'd all win the gold medal and live happily every after.

And we proclaim, with a touch of insecurity, "WE ARE THE PEOPLE WHO JOG" and look down on people who hop, or skip or jump for gold medals. Those who only watch the Olympics on TV are beneath contempt. We cannot even conceive that some people just aren't interested in athletics.

I can't imagine the Buddha being like us. And if he was I'd have the same criticism of him.

And do you know what? I think the world economic crisis or global warming cannot be solved by teaching more middle-class white people to meditate (which is mostly what we do). It would be nice, but actually the people whose minds we need to change are politicians. And they are taboo to Buddhists - ritually polluted, and to be avoided at all costs. Our own views prevent us from taking the kinds of actions that would really relieve suffering in the world: poverty, famine, disease, wars, slavery, etc. We Buddhists need to re-examine our views.

Best Wishes
Jayarava

Wednesday, June 27, 2012

Blogger elisa freschi said...

Thank you very much, Jayarava. This is a honest and though-provoking answer.

As for your first point, I basically agree with you (in your metaphor: we keep on jogging, because it actualy "works" and because the fact that it works can make us hope that even a golden medal could be possible). I would just ask more honesty about it. The kind of Buddhists I encounter (unlike you, as already noted) claim that they are "not believers" and that "Buddhism is not a religion" and try to persuade me on the ground of "mere rationality" that they are right. Either they do not know that they are biased, or they deliberately ignoring their initial "falling in love" experience.

As for the second point, a friend of mine (a Buddhist since decades) recently considered creating some sort of Buddhist "party". I had her read your blog posts, which she really appreciated. After some months, she wrote me back saying that usual prejudices about Buddhists are true, i.e., they are really not interested in politics, in the "outer" world, in the other people's welfare, etc.
But what could one actually do?

Wednesday, June 27, 2012

Blogger Adam Cope said...

Hello Jayarava :-)

Hope this finds you well, despite your fatigue with blogging. Maybe a period of writing your books in privacy & calm might be more germane for you at this stage? Most theories of creativity posit the necessity of the suspension of criticism in the early stages of a creation. Exposing one's newly formed thoughts etc. to the large & anonymous internet public isn't always a serene event, as you well know. Bon courage…

Please don't un-publish your blog as I am still reading the past articles!

I haven't been closely reading your posts off-late, mostly because of 'information over-load' & partly because I am trying to limit my time on the computer. I also continue to ruminate on my primary interest (as an artist) in the thread of phenomena/perception/experience. The dialogue that you kindly entered into
has really helped my understanding - thanks!

Wednesday, July 04, 2012

Blogger Jayarava said...

Hi Adam

I always appreciated your contributions. One of the few. No plans to unpublish.

I'm busy sussing out pressure groups and harassing my MP to do something about bankers. Writing on economics subjects. On the whole it is a lot more satisfying than the Buddhist bubble. At least in the real world the ideologues with the magical panacea are the obvious enemy!

Cheers
Jayarava

Wednesday, July 04, 2012

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