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Blogger Adam Cope said...

Greetings Jayarava

"We can and do have partial objective knowledge about experience - else I could not expect anyone to read these words and find them meaningful. "

There is an big difference between having 'partial objective knowledge' and being able to communicate it as well as reach a consensus... This makes me think about the parable of Chinese Whispers. No doubt if all the aforesaid blind men got together & came to a consensus about the elephant, they would find it to be a scaly compost heap with thorns! That is only after several centuries of disagreement.


'Observation without evaluation is the highest form of human intelligence' - Krishnamurti.

Even if we cannot have experience without having some form of evaluation, at least we can be skeptical about our own evaluation. Isn't that the moral of the Blind Men parable?

Saturday, July 05, 2014

Blogger Jayarava Attwood said...

"No doubt if all the aforesaid blind men got together & came to a consensus about the elephant, they would find it to be a scaly compost heap with thorns! That is only after several centuries of disagreement."

Oh Adam. This is everything that is wrong with philosophy. It's completely bloody obvious that an elephant is an elephant. There has been a millennia long consensus on elephants. You know exactly what animal I am talking about (whereas has I been speaking of a tuatara or a weta I might expect you not to know). So this is a completely spurious argument. Cutting off your head to spite your brain?

"Even if we cannot have experience without having some form of evaluation, at least we can be skeptical about our own evaluation. Isn't that the moral of the Blind Men parable?"

Why not express it in the terms of the text, why overlay the words of someone like Krishnamurti? You are quite capable of reading and understanding this story, which is after all written for simpletons. The accompanying Udāna sums it up quite nicely:

Imesu kira sajjanti eke samaṇabrāhmaṇā,
Viggayha naṃ vivadanti janā ekaṅgadassīno
.

Some philosophers are very much attached to their ideas.
People who only see one side, fall out and argue over it.

Saturday, July 05, 2014

Blogger Adam Cope said...

Hear Oh Jayarava! Be still & listen to this tale …

So you didn't enjoy my quib about why the blind men can't reach agreement about their experience of the elephant? ;-) The answer being illustrated by the parable of the Chinese Whispers… i.e How can we reach agreement, especially as any agreement will have to be framed, transposed & expressed in a shared language? Interesting that you point out the scriptural distinction between ' vimutti' & 'vimuttinana'. How expression isn't experience.

Having done a little research about this parable of the blind men & elephant, apparently the Jains used it to illustrate the need for tolerance whilst living amongst other religions & points of view. So in fact, Sean Carroll has merely commented upon another layer of established meaning in this parable : The reason why the blind men can't come to a shared common conclusion which approaches an ontological truth, is that each of the are attached to their own particular point of view (dristi) about the nature of their experience of the elephant.

"The sixth no sooner had begun
About the beast to grope,
Than, seizing on the swinging tail
That fell within his scope' - The Blind Men and the Elephant, John Godfrey Saxe (1816-1887)

As an art teacher, this parable well illustrates my regular bread & butter experience of just how differently even people with eyesight perceive the same object of perception. The teaching of object & subject arising at the same time, of our perceptions being subjective 'objects of mind' (dharmas), of epistemology … are good helps when trying to unentangle the evaluation factor that quickie co-arises with observation.

I agree that parables whose moral is quickly grasped may be difficult to read in a skeptical sense & thus may be in danger of being considered as 'smug'. Personally I enjoy metaphors more than parables & analogies, as they depend what Gowler calls 'imaginative strain' , which also opens the way for the possibility of a plurality of meanings :

"Metaphor relies on established dissimilarities between things compared - the language "streches" for these new applications & demands from the hearers an "imaginative strain" - where as analogy downplays differences and no "imaginative strain" is required." David Gowler What are They Saying about the Parables? (google books)

For your amusement, there's a very astute & hilarious updated version of the blind men parable here, which has a very good answer to Sean Carroll's question : http://www.bethinking.org/is-christianity-the-only-way/the-blind-men-the-elephant-and-the-zoo

And any contemporary reading must be contextualised by the sad reality that the african elephant may be extinct by 2030 due to the ivory trade…. Six blind men touched an elephant & concluded that it was worth killing for its ivory?

Monday, July 07, 2014

Blogger Jayarava Attwood said...

The blind men in the story can't reach agreement because they are set up to fail by religious twits. There is no way for them to reach agreement under the conditions of the story (in any version that I'm aware of). They never stood a chance.

However we can have objective knowledge of subjective domains if we just communicate. Or money, for example, wouldn't work.

"ontological truth" is not a thing. I don't think truth can't be qualified by the adjective "ontological". I think you might mean an "objective truth"? Objective truths may concern the domain of ontology (what exists) or epistemology (what we know). It's true that mountains exist (ontology). It's true that Van Gogh died in France (epistemology). And we establish objective truths by comparing notes on experience - where everyone has the same experience we can infer that something objective and independent of any one person is conditioning the experience. Of cause, even objective knowledge is subject to revising from time to time. Knowledge is not perfect because our ability to perceive and compare notes is not perfect. More observations are always possible.

One of the themes of this essay is the confusion between ontology and epistemology. And now we know why that's important.

In the case of the blind men, they have different experiences, but had they moved around and touched the elephant in many places while comparing notes they would quickly have realised the scale and complex nature of the elephant. But one touch and no conferring precludes objective knowledge. It leaves us with subjectivity which philosophers take to be the only valid source of knowledge. One touch and no conferring or only allowing for one's own subjective point of view is not a valid way to establish knowledge.

Had I been the only one of my friends to see two elephants on the road out of Kushinagar it would not have been objective knowledge and I might have suspected heat induced hallucination or a bad curry. But all four of us saw them, several of us took photographs which I still have somewhere, and other friends said they also saw two elephants on the same road a little later. Unless many of us were having the same hallucination, the principle of parsimony suggests that the elephants were objective and independent of any one person's perceiving them. Idealistic explanations are available, but they are far from parsimonious (in fact they are bonkers!). Realist explanations don't allow for the arising and passing away of the elephant in our minds. If the elephants were real in a permanent sense and we had a perception of them then we would perceive elephants constantly and indefinitely (also bonkers). In fact I go for days on end without perceiving elephants. So we adopt a middle way.

Sean isn't asking a question. He's making a statement. Me too.

As a writer I want to know that I've communicated the main points effectively before pursuing the byways. Otherwise I've gone to a lot of trouble for nothing.

...

Monday, July 07, 2014

Blogger Jayarava Attwood said...

...

That said, let's look at metaphors:

Metaphors are no strain at all. We understand them effortlessly and transparently (most of the time). We easily map experiential domains onto abstract domains (grasping ideas, feeling down, stretching the truth, pushing the envelope, raising hopes) and one experiential domain onto another (bright sounds, loud colours, sharp tastes, sour smells). We hardly ever have to explain metaphors. People just get them. It's no strain at all. I also effortlessly get metaphors from India in Sanskrit and Pāli from 2000 years ago (grasping at experience, attached to pleasure, pointing out the truth). So it's not merely cultural. In fact our brains probably do metaphors because of physical (neuronal) crossover between processing centres in the brain - we're metaphorically wired for metaphor. We have to make an effort *not* to employ metaphors to do the heavy lifting of abstract thought.

I guess that Gowler is probably a philosopher rather than a scientist. He might want to compare notes.

Monday, July 07, 2014

Blogger Jayarava Attwood said...

Adam did you send another comment? I thought I saw something, then got busy and then when I looked it was gone from the system.

Monday, July 07, 2014

Blogger cuerpomente said...

The point is that you cannot be sure. If you are sure, you are unethical. Lets check it: Suppose the elephant is the climate. You apply your thermometers and other sensors for enough time. How would you describe the climate: warming up, cooling down, changing, as usual, with a causal agent, etc. How other people describe it?
How is the conversation among them going?

Monday, July 07, 2014

Blogger S said...

Can you help me understand your graph?

A common experience of the difference between subjective experience and objective reality is running a fever. I feel cold, but I am actually hot, as I can confirm by asking a friend or using a thermometer.

How does that fit in your graph?

Thursday, July 10, 2014

Blogger Jayarava Attwood said...

Firstly in my understanding of the Buddhist model "experience" is not subjective. Experience is what happens when the subject meets object and can only happen in the intersection of the two.

Ontology is what there is. Your body, the virus particles, the rise in body temperature as a symptom. The laws of thermodynamics which determine how heat flows.

Epistemology is what you know about what there is. All the ontological facts must be supported by an epistemology so that you have a way of knowing about them. You can know the world through your senses and your mind - so far as I know there are no other sources of knowledge. Deciding what constitutes true knowledge is a complex business. I find it helpful to think of "true" as accurate.

How do we know about feeling cold and feeling hot? Well the body has sensors in the skin which detect which way heat is flowing: into the body, or out of the body; and internal heat sensors which help us to maintain optimum conditions for life (or homoestasis - meaning 'maintaining the status quo').

Heat flows from areas of higher temperature to areas of low temperature (as described in the laws of thermodynamics). Our bodies are always shedding heat to the environment unless the air temperature + the heating effect of any direct heat source like the sun is close to optimum body temperature: normally around 37.5°C. If the combined effect is colder than body temp we experience a nett heat-loss and our bodies detect the heat-flow away from the body and register that as "feeling cold". This (combined with information about our core temperature) can activate a number of of physiological responses that either try to slow down heat loss (i.e. restriction of blood-flow to the skim, goosebumps) or to generate more internal heat (i.e. shivering). Similarly if we are taking in too much heat or our core temperature is elevated, we can shed heat by sweating - the evaporation of water from the skin cools the skin and blood in the skin is cooled, which eventually lowers the body temperature. But generally we manage this in cool climates by adjusting our layers of insulation.

When a pathogen is detected the body raises it's own temperature. It does this because many of the pathogens that infect us are adapted to our body temperature so heating up helps to fight them off. But raising the body's temperature also triggers heat-loss mechanisms like sweating. As a result of being hotter than average and activating heat-loss mechanisms we experience a nett heat-loss to the environment. Thus we *feel* cool, though we *are* hot. Both are due to ontologically objective criteria.

It might be helpful to consider the analogy of touching different substances. If I put my hand on my wooden desk there is no much heat flow so it feels quite neutral in heat terms. If I touch the metal (water filled) radiator it feels cool. Wood is a poor conductor of heat and the heat flow registered when I touch it is small. Metal is a good conductor of heat (which is why you can't melt gold in a candle flame even though gold melts at about 800°C and the flame is 1200-1400°C). When I touch the metal it is at the same ambient temperature as the desk, but it conducts heat away more efficiently. So it feels cooler.

...

Thursday, July 10, 2014

Blogger Jayarava Attwood said...

...

The diagram (it's not a graph) gives you four different ways of looking at the experience

ontologically objective : body, virus, temperature, physics of heat conduction, body's system for registering heat and responding to maintain homoeostasis, body's immune responses (raising temp), body's response to being too hot for homoeostasis. All the physical and chemical processes which are going on.

ontologically subjective : I feel hot and cold at the same time, I have a headache, etc. Your first person perspective on the phenomena of having a fever.

epistemologically subjective : I'm so miserable. This is the worst cold I've had. I won't be able to go into work today. I must have caught a chill. Knowledge that emerges purely from your first person perspective of the experience.

epistemologically objective : I have a cold. It won't last more than a week (and if it does, it might be something more serious). The mechanisms of my body are producing these weird feelings. If I take a decongestant it will relieve the symptoms of congestion. Knowledge that is not dependent on your first person perspective. Someone else can observe you and deduce that you have a fever, have symptoms consistent with having a cold, and that symptoms are relieved by remedies. Anyone who has had a cold can empathise with your suffering. Empathy is an important and much neglected source of knowledge - most philosophers of mind ignore it all together which is bizarre to say the least.

In a sense Searle's example is a bit limited and your question draws this out which is useful. He's making a particular point about having objective knowledge of an ontologically subjective domain (such as money, society or a first person perspective). We see that at all times there are various perspectives on experience which are available to us. We feel hot because our core temperature is raised and we feel cold because of nett heat-loss to the environment; we feel miserable because the disease is unpleasant; and we take appropriate action to relieve the symptoms. We operate in all four quadrants all the time. This is an important insight.

And I think here we see the value of the Buddhist take on experience. No experience is purely subjective. About as close as we can get are the arūpa-dhyānas in which our contact with sensory experience is so minimal that we cannot register it. This proves to be a problematic situation for post-Asoka sectarian Buddhists because it apparently disrupts the continuity of the stream of awareness - different sects solve the problem in different ways. Theravāda with bhavaṅgacitta, Vaibhāṣika with sarva-asti and so on. Similarly no experience is purely objective - there is no such thing as a direct experience of reality. Experience is always mediated by the sensory faculties and the mind.

Thursday, July 10, 2014

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