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OpenID level8 said...

Love the IKEA manual image by the way. :D

Very clever.

Friday, November 14, 2008

OpenID level8 said...

P.S. This link rocks:

http://www.tipitaka.org/romn/

Just what I was looking for. Thanks!

Friday, November 14, 2008

Blogger Jayarava said...

Oh Yeah! This is the 7th council Burmese edition of the Canon. It differs in some small respects to the PTS editions, and sometimes is numbered slightly differently. But now with Unicode so much more is possible!

You will also enjoy this link to another hole Pali Canon at www.bodhgayanews.net/pali.htm. In this case it is the Sri Lankan edition. Not fully proof read, but the search facility is mighty useful.

Also have you seen the Dictionary of Pali Names online. Again very useful.

Best Wishes
Jayarava

Friday, November 14, 2008

Blogger Jason said...

OMG you're on fire here, Jayarava. I know you and I have touched on these issues a few times, but for the most part, it's still way over my head. I'd need to read it sentence by sentence and ask you a bunch of questions each time. And then you'd get fed up with me :)

As for the IKEA assembly instructions, I have seen way too many of them in my time, normally surrounded by various bits of oddly-shaped wood and some screws!

Jason.

Thursday, November 20, 2008

Blogger Jayarava said...

Thanks Jason,

I'd be happy to meet up and discuss it with you. When did I ever get fed up with you asking questions - apart from that one time? ;-)

Best wishes
Jayarava

Thursday, November 20, 2008

Blogger DarkDream said...

I am glad that you have taken the time to learn Pali and not trust what the translators translate for you.

I have tried to learn some Pali recently but it is fairly a tough go.

A few comments I want to make is that if you notice in the passage that the Buddha is describing the experience (I believe is nirvana) in a negative sense. That is all the factors are not postulating what something is, rather what it is not.

To me this is the key of the entire passage. From my understanding of the Buddha, and emphasized by the three characteristics of experience, is that our experience is characterized by a self-built reality of concepts which are reified to be permanent. This world we create has its impetus in impulses that is fueled by desire for continual existence.

The passage is an experiental one that is talking about when the fabricated world is realeased. The unfabricated world is not built upon anything and thus noting positive can be postulated on it.

Sunday, November 30, 2008

Blogger Jayarava said...

Hi Dark Dream,

I'm learning Sanskrit at the moment and that puts things in perspective. Pali is an easy language, much easier, by comparison!

I'm with you as far as the last sentence. I don't understand how you slip into talking about fabricated and unfabricated "worlds". I agree that what is conditioned or unconditioned is experience, though I am still pondering what the latter half of that statement might mean - is there some kind of experience which does not dependence on the senses OR the mind? I find that hard to imagine. David Kalupahana denies the possibility, but has been roundly criticised for his method of inferring this.

I'm slightly wary of claiming knowledge here vs understanding what a text is saying. I think I understand what the texts says, but I don't know what it means from personal experience. The best we can say, IMHO, is that texts like this help to orient our Buddhist practice towards an experience which resolves these kinds of mysteries.

Beyond this point.... "here be dragons".

Best wishes
Jayarava

Sunday, November 30, 2008

Blogger DarkDream said...

I guess I rushed my remark. There is, of course, no such thing as an unfabricated "world." To say so is to contradict my previous statement that nothing positive can be said on the experience of nibbana which is beyond concepts and thus partitioning (which "world" seems to indicate).

The fabricated world, I am suggesting, is the world of experience that an individual experiences. This metaphor of "loka" is used in some of the Pali canon's suttas to suggest this. Sue Hamiliton specifically talks about this in her two books.

All I can say is that you've essentially stated as such in your last couple of posts what the experience is. It is an experience where there is no conceptual apparatus being overlayed on top of raw experience. It is an experience of ultimate non-judgement, where there is no desire hence everything is perfect. This is because the ultimate nature of desire is to want things to be different than it is. It is an experience where ther is no sense of time or me (for there to be a concept of you there must be a concept of time).

These are really just useless words. It is like describing an exotic location, but no one can really truly know what a person is talking about unless they actually go there.

All I can say, is that a good teacher and a lot of meditation is the means to perhaps knowing what the text is referring to.

I can say from personal experience that the only time I gained sufficient insight was when I gained a experiential understanding of anicca during a long meditation retreat. I saw everything around me fading, continents, the world, stars and even the universe and saw how miniscule and unimportant all the things I thought was dear.

Reading scriptures can only take you so far. Unless it is grounded in some kind of experience that alters one's view of themself and the world, it is just philosophy.

But even if you have the experience, it is just the beginning and not the end. It is the integration of the experience in your life is the hard part.

Anyway, best of luck.

DarkDream

Monday, December 01, 2008

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