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Anonymous Balaji said...

a very interesting post. can you also elaborate on the concerns (or lack thereof) in the canon, towards the family left behind by ascetics.

Friday, November 05, 2010

Blogger Jayarava said...

Hi Balaji

I don't have an opinion on the hypothetical families those young men and women "left behind". In the case of the Buddha the whole story about his home life, his wife and son I consider to be a later fiction: cf the version of the story in the Ariyapariyesanā Sutta (MN 26).

Friday, November 05, 2010

Anonymous star said...

Tiny typo alert: "this is an in surmountable" has a space between the "in" and the "surmountable"

Do you have an ISBN for the Walters book? I'm not finding it in Google books.

Friday, November 05, 2010

Anonymous star said...

You said, "The fact that only more peripheral themes of the Upaniṣads and not the central themes are found in the Pāli texts is all the more difficult to understand in this light."

I would love to read a future post on what the peripheral themes of the Upanisads you find in the canon are, and what central themes you see as missing. (Still trying to get a grip on Upanisadic thinking as seen in/not seen in the canon.)

Friday, November 05, 2010

Anonymous star said...

Great post!

I borrow comparison-words from the Buddhist canon when I distinguish "gross" from "fine" in reading the Pali canon, but it seems to me the pattern is that there are many "gross" changes overlaying the canon, with whole pericopes being dropped into inappropriate places, perhaps even entirely different takes on what the Buddha was talking about being overlayed on his sermons, but the more I read the canon the more I see underlying themes and stories that are so "fine" that they can easily be missed from sutta to sutta, and only seeing the grand pattern makes them noticeable -- as you have outlined here on your blog with the "Brahmins don't talk about atta" insight. I would contend that the reasons we are able to locate these "fine" patterns are twofold: (1) those passing on the suttas didn't see the patterns themselves so the ideas/stories were not modified by the opinions of those shaping the canon over the centuries and (2) we *can* see the patterns because we have certain advantages that have not been possible in the past: access to the hugeness of the whole surviving canon, and less indoctrinated minds doing the studying.

There appears to be a continuous story -- history -- of a man's life, and a consistent character given to the man (with a few "gross" exceptions), and a very uniform message seen through dozens of lenses as he preaches to a variety of different people coming from different schools of thought and cultures and stations in life. As more and more subtleties in the text emerge, we can get closer and closer to knowing that a historical person is the original teacher, because various committees over time, each working with their few pieces of the whole, cannot have kept the underlying story and message that uniform across the entire work. If there was no historical Buddha then there was at the very least an author or a very small group of contemporaneous collaborators who invented him and his history, because such a consistent story doesn't come along by being created piecemeal over long periods of time.

If the Buddha was a fictional character invented by one person (or a small group), then all credit goes to the author who was, effectively, the Buddha as *someone* came up with the insights at the heart of this wonderful doctrine. But when I look at story-telling from that period of time as revealed in the Vedanta and later up to the Mahabarata, I don't see as finely nuanced characters as Gotama in the canon, nor the detailed and consistent histories in the tales told there; I read very roughly hewn ideas and archetypal characters and stories that were told with fantastic elements that needed to be justified later so other tales were tacked onto them to make it all work. But then I am no scholar of ancient works from the subcontinent, so I could easily be mistaken in this.

Friday, November 05, 2010

Blogger Jayarava said...

Hi Star

That's an article in the journal History of Religion.

I did mention some of this recently
early buddhists and atman/brahman
Brahmā the cheat
A Parody of Vedic Belief

I more or less agree on the question of authorship. It would be interesting to thoroughly read the Mahābharata though. The Upaniṣads are a different genre of text so we don't expect the same features.

Yes. One can see ideas being used again and again. I translated a Vinaya passage today which is a story from the MN with a Vinaya Spin at the end - it emphasises the values of settled monastics. Often the sutta parallels are even more interesting. The Vāseṭṭha Sutta (MN 98) for instance is retold in DN 13 & 27; and in Sn 3.9. There is enough difference to suggest three species of the same story which existed separately for a considerable period before being collated into the canon.

Friday, November 05, 2010

Anonymous Balaji said...

>> In the case of the Buddha the whole story about his home life, his wife and son I consider to be a later fiction.

oh, very interesting. i hadn't even considered that.

i remember a post by you explaining how Gotama Buddha remained in touch with his clan and how a marriage proposal for a prince put the Buddha is a delicate position. can you pls throw more light on Gotama Buddha's family?

thanks.

Saturday, November 06, 2010

Blogger Jayarava said...

HI Balaji

I don't recall ever writing about the Buddha and his clan, or a marriage proposal. Perhaps is was someone else? I think to get into a discussion about this would take us a bit too far from the topic of the post, and I'm a bit wary of starting general discussions as I don't have the time and energy to do that.

However an excellent source is Ñāṇamoli's book The Life of the Buddha: According to the Pali Canon which draws on Pāli sources to construct a complete biography and includes many of his family interactions (with references!). It's not a critical work but it is an excellent starting point for what you are asking about.

Best Wishes
Jayarava

Saturday, November 06, 2010

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