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Blogger 賈尼 said...

I am more likely to give up blogging than I am to give up Buddhism.

As much as I'd miss reading your posts, this seems a sound resolution to me!

Friday, July 06, 2012

OpenID meaningness said...

Thank you so much for both the inspiration and insight in this post!

Our paths have been strikingly similar in some ways, and I seem now to have similar reasons for continuing to call myself a Buddhist (despite everything).

I found your paragraph that begins "Yes, they are circular" particularly resonant.

I do the intellectual stuff because I can and sometimes I think it might be useful to someone and I somewhat enjoy it. But it has very little to do with my practice or experience of Buddhism.

If I were going to abandon something, it would be spouting off on the web, not Buddhist practice...

Friday, July 06, 2012

Blogger Jayarava said...

Hi David,

Thanks.

I'm not sure I said it in the post, but I believe that being a member of a community is a practice of the highest order. Very challenging but also rewarding.

Friday, July 06, 2012

OpenID saibhu said...

Hi Jayarava,

When I read about your plans of stopping blogging I really hoped you would write about the personals reasons for that step. Now, after having read your post, I'm really glad you did.

Even though I've only been involved in Buddhism for one year and not even have attended one single retreat I'm on the verge of leaving it.

I've been involved for a while in Secular Buddhism, but in some sense I think Glenn Wallis is right. Secular Buddhism is a contradiction in itself.
More importantly I'm seriously considering leaving my local sangha.

Although the conclusion I draw is the total opposite, when I thought about your post and more, sitting at my bed with tears running down my face, I realized its pretty much for the same reason.

Everything that really puts me off at my local sangha are things that disturb human relationships. Rules that create a distance between people rather than bringing them together. Exercises that prevent true experience rather than enabling it.

When I first read "The Roots of Buddhist Romanticism" by Thanissaro Bhikkhu one thought really hit me: "That's not what we're looking for".

Since then similar things pop up every now and then and fit into a pattern. Stephen Schettini in his essay "So what?" is one of the examples. Your blog post is anouther one. Glenn Wallis says something similar, just in his own punk-attitude ("Buddhism ultimately fails the human").

I don't think these are only exceptions or people unable to live "true Buddhism". I also don't think all the criticism is wasted. I think the question why are we here in the first place and where do we want to go are leading us somewhere.

Maybe, if we're lucky, it leads us to something new.

Something better than Buddhism.

At least, I hope so.

I really do.

Saturday, July 07, 2012

Blogger Jayarava said...

Dear Saibhu

One year of being involved in Buddhism and you're ready to move on. And you believe you have great insights into what's wrong with Buddhism? And not even one retreat? And on the basis of shit you've read by strangers on the internet. That's not involvement. You've not involved. You're still just flirting.

People are disappointing. All of 'em. The things they do, the way they talk, and the ideas they have. So what indeed? One has to form attachments or be less than human. Buddhism is about reflecting on the experience of disappointment, not avoiding it.

Disappointment is not only to be expected, but is essential for making progress! We learn by reflecting on experience. But people do not become less disappointing in general. Indeed for the first 10-20 years they become MORE disappointing!

"Maybe, if we're lucky, it leads us to something new.

Something better than Buddhism.
"

NO! This is just magical thinking! Buddhism is just people. It's exactly what people do. People are the same everywhere. If you want to make your relationships more human then you need to commit to them for the long term, pour yourself into them. Use your judgement (a la the Kālāmas) but commit. If you are looking for something more human then where will you find it except in relationship with humans? If you are looking for something more than human then you will find life endlessly disappointing.

If you haven't made friends in your local sangha then why not? After one year and not having been on a single retreat, how the fuck would you even know? It sounds like you're just looking for an excuse to avoid disappointment. Which is ultimately disappointing.

There is nothing better. There's only ideals and people that fail to live up to them. As it was, so shall it always be!

Glenn and his fancy talking mates are not arguing about the real world on his blog. They're arguing about ideas about the real world. Glenn was a Buddhist for decades, but most of them only seem to have vague ideas about what being a practising Buddhist is like. It's just intellectual porn.

You can't have relationships on the internet. To be human means coming down out of the clouds. We have to get dirty. Take risks. Fall in love. Then try to reclaim the projections. But it only works with real people. You can't do it on the internet.

We're often attracted to Buddhism in the first place because of all the cloud talk about enlightenment and perfection. But if we don't let our relationships grind that naivety out of us, then we never get beyond wanting Santa to come and save us.

I have no idea what your community is like. Maybe you'll find a better one. More this or more that. Whatever. But I guarantee you won't find a perfect one. In fact your teacher is probably fucking someone right now. So what? It's how you deal with your own emotional responses that matters. If you go off looking for perfection you risk finding a group that reinforces your prejudices and views, your stupidity and naivety. Then you are really in trouble.

There is nothing better than Buddhism. Nothing worse. There are just groups of people. Relationships are interactive. For goodness sake log off and go and talk to someone.

And if you cite my writing as a reason for quitting I shall come back to haunt you in my next life.

Best Wishes
Jayarava

PS Go see your elected representative and tell them what you think of the job they're doing. Get involved!

Saturday, July 07, 2012

Blogger Chrisy said...

Enjoy your writing...your honesty...thank you...

Saturday, July 07, 2012

OpenID canhedance said...

hi jayarava,

thanks for sharing your personal journey. i've been casting around here in Melbourne for a sangha for pretty much the same reasons you've articulated and am inspired to have a look again at the FOTWB chapter here in Melbourne.

The bunch of secular buddhists I've hung out with a bit so far have been ok but are young and limited in their format (they haven't quite decided if they are a regular meditation class with retreat-on-selling or the seed of a community for example).

No reason to be exclusive of course - there are good people everywhere - but unfortunately not enough time in the evenings.

Also, I liked your reply to saibhu - it's important to commit - but for me, I haven't quite found the right sangha yet. Too picky perhaps? Or maybe not enough choices?

Anyway, thanks again,

jonckher

Monday, July 09, 2012

OpenID saibhu said...

Dear Jayarava,

thanks for your honest reply.

Buddhism is about reflecting on the experience of disappointment, not avoiding it.

What if that's not what Buddhism is about in my sangha? What if, in my opinion, the effect Buddhism has on the members of my sangha is in fact avoiding disappointment?

You're totally right. I'm only flirting. But maybe there's a reason for that. Not every flirt turns into a committed long-time relationship. And that's probably a good thing. But I didn't write my initial comment to talk about my sangha.

For one I wanted to thank you for your post and telling you that it inspired me to think about certain things. Yes, the internet cannot provide real human relationship (i never thought it could), but it can be a way of sharing thoughts and ideas, maybe not like a real conversation can, but more like a book or a piece of music does.

And one of the thoughts I had reading your text was: If quite some people are not there for "Buddhism" but for something else, maybe we could create something else that suits them/us better? Is a ancient asian religion really the best fit for us with our european cultural background?

There's only ideals and people that fail to live up to them.

You can't really change people. But you certainly can change ideals and structures. This has happened throughout history and it will continue to happen.

Go see your elected representative and tell them what you think of the job they're doing. Get involved!

I'm going to do that. Even if it's only to prove you wrong about the impact of the internet ;)

And if you cite my writing as a reason for quitting I shall come back to haunt you in my next life.

Actually, I'm willing to risk that ;)

So long, and thanks for all the fish
Saibhu

Monday, July 09, 2012

Blogger jps said...

Greetings and Salutations: I have just discovered your blog, and will spend some time reading it. I appreciate your openness and honesty. I am also a long-time Buddhist, more a self-directed solo practitioner, although with a great group of dharma friends that I meet once a month. I too have been reading Gombrich and Hamilton's books, and am working on a dissertation about the meaning of anatta. I especially like your post on 'what the Buddha means by Loka'and will keep reading.'
Namaste

Tuesday, July 10, 2012

Blogger Jayarava said...

Hi JPS

With reference to anatta one question which fascinates me is that no Brahmin every mentions it, let alone has an opinion on it; the Buddha never discusses it with a Brahmin. How does one explain this if it is the view of Brahmins.

The Buddha discusses Jain ideas with Jains, Ājīvaka ideas with Ājīvakas, and Brahmin ideas with Brahmins. But never attā with Brhamins.

When I say "never" I am relying on my own unpublished survey of Brahmanical religious ideas found throughout the canon.

There is a blog on it from 2 years ago Early Buddhists and ātman/brahman.

Best Wishes
Jayarava

Tuesday, July 10, 2012

Blogger Chris Young said...

Jayarava,
Firstly i want to thank you for your blog I have recently just found it and have enjoyed reading some of your blogs.
Have not read all as of yet but will read them over time. What I have read so far has been wonderful and to be honest i don't read the comments.
As I am more concerned about the subjects and contemplating and forming my own feelings.
I would hate to see you stop writing but can understand why. And just my two cents worth ignore the nay sayers because your writing still does
connect with people within the sangha and those looking into it.

Chris Young

Thursday, July 12, 2012

Blogger Leamur said...

I've really enjoyed Jayarava's Raves & found your work here thought-provoking & well-thought, which I appreciate so much. So thank you. I'll keep looking for you in the hope & expectation that something will compel you to speak out again. This is so true:

"Ethics is really only empathetic relationships, nothing more, but nothing less. You can't practice outside of human relationships."

Thursday, July 12, 2012

Blogger Jayarava said...

Leamur

I'm still blogging, just else where. I've had a few articles on Renegade Economist, and I have another blog called Modern Debt Jubilee which is more a collection of interesting stuff with occasional comment by me.

Thursday, July 12, 2012

Blogger अश्वमित्रः said...

Hi Jayarava. I've found your blog late in its history. Hope to be able to read it all before it disappears. Thanks for your words, they're good ones.

Friday, July 20, 2012

Blogger Adam Cope said...

Dear Jayarava

Many thanks for this heart-felt post, which I've been mulling over these last few weeks.... sorry for my long reply.

I salute your courage (or folly) of writing so personally & with such self-disclosure on the internet. What a beautiful web of friendships, if you don't mind me saying so. Kalyana mitrata. There's a french bon-mot which goes something like 'life is series of meetings (encounters).'

It got me thinking about whether a 'spiritual' or 'religious' autobiography is somehow different from any other form of autobiography? Or indeed, somehow different from any 'normal' biography? How does one's inner-life impact upon one's outer-life & visa-versa ?

"I must tell you now that Buddhism does not emphasize one’s personal story, but rather the practice of mind studying the mind." Joan Halifax Roshi, A Buddhist Life in America

A true telling of one's spiritual life is more than just a lineage list of 'my teachers'; it must be something that takes the writer to his or her core-themes, core-lessons to be learnt. The 'lived experience-giving-rise-to-awakened action' aspect rather than the 'ideas-i-have thought-about' aspect.

“Our own lives are the instrument with which we experiment with truth.” — Thay Thich Nhat Hanh

Interesting to read that in your case, like many others, the spiritual life opens via a door of suffering. Your post reminds me somewhat of Sangharakashita's writings, the more autobiographical ones, where he writes in the first person, staying close to the narrative of his life.

"If you are genuinely committed to the spiritual path the time will come when you will be able to look back and see that great changes have taken place. You will see that you have grown, even that you have been transformed." Going for Refuge - Sangharakshita

"I've watched many people be transformed by our practices and it still gives me a buzz watching friends striving to be better people, and succeeding in whatever degree." - Jayarava

Actions speak louder than words.

Monday, July 23, 2012

Blogger Adam Cope said...

I concur with you that what one does & how one behaves is a better indicator of what one truly values than what one thinks about … however I would add that we all get locked into habits & delusions that are estranged from our deepest intentions… so our failings aren't always intentional but rather more a form of unaware mechanical repetition (the metaphor of endless rebirth is powerful here). At least, not intentional at the deepest level. That's why it's inspirational to read how life might be different…

"You can't practice outside of human relationships" as you put it. Sangha can fulfill our need for belonging & support as well as our need for feedback & to have our actions mirrored back to ourselves. Awakening is a collective effort, as you have often pointed out, not least in your post 'having your cake & sharing it', for which I thank you, O Blogging Dharmacārin.

One of the really useful - sadly little known but much needed - contributions of the Triratna Order is Team-based Right Livelihood businesses, where the work place isn't just a chance to practice Right Livelihood but also to generate Dana, generosity. This simply isn't something you can do alone! BTW, I feel that politically engaged Buddhism has more to offer than only doing the contesting & the protesting. It must propose an economic alternative.

I see my parenting of my two children & my being a husband right at the very centre of my practice. Living in a family situation very quickly points out one's shortfalls in behaviour! Family-life can also nourish, transform & support. I also acknowledge the support, friendship & the chance to practice together that I get from being a non-residential lay friend of Plum Village sangha here in the Dordogne. When I go into the painted caves here in SW France, I experience a profound feeling of belonging with my fellow artist-painters, albeit that I am from a different time, different world-view & different techniques. My own personal painting practice has been profoundly influenced by actually physically painting alongside some other fellow painters & other forms of exchanges with painters more advanced than myself. Confirm from my own experience that no-one ever learnt to paint from a book (though this hasn't stopped me from writing one) but a book can be a useful aid. Having lead quiet a few residential painting workshops over the years, I can confirm that creativity can really flourish in a group. Group psychology isn't the same as individual psychology. Getting involved is essential.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

If sangha is so vital to our practice, then each of us as individuals should reflect on how we protect & nourish our sangha. You might be interested in The Tenth Mindfulness Training of The Order of Interbeing (Plum Village) : Protecting and Nourishing the Sangha

Wishing you happy continuation on your path :-)

Monday, July 23, 2012

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