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Blogger alex said...

Hi Jayarava,

From my understanding of chaos I believe that complex systems are deterministic but not predictable. Non-linear systems can be described by using very simple iterative rules, where every subsequent step is well determined. The problem with them is that we cannot say in what state the system will be at a given point in time unless we play all the steps.

So chaos along does not remove determinism from the Universe. Yes it's very complex and unpredictable, but yet…

Another question is how and to what extent consciousness can influence this process. In other words, to me the theoretical question remains. Who wills the will? How does the whole machinery operates while allowing for free choices?

Cheers,
A.

Friday, February 06, 2015

Blogger Jayarava Attwood said...

Alex. You are probably right about the strict definition. But as far as I can see the system is beyond prediction. Which is why dark matter was a surprise and dark energy a shock. They don't fall naturally out of the standard model. No one did the calculations and said we need WIMPS and a long range repulsive force, let's go looking for them.

"Another question is how and to what extent consciousness can influence this process. In other words, to me the theoretical question remains. Who wills the will? How does the whole machinery operates while allowing for free choices?"

"Consciousness?" Meaning what?

"Who wills the will?" is just a badly formed question by Buddhist standards. There is no who.

And "The machinery" is an inappropriate, inapplicable metaphor.

Keeping the discussion alive with doubtful entities and bad metaphors is why I don't find it very interesting. If you just sort out the initial confusions then the issue loses its appeal.

Saturday, February 07, 2015

Blogger alex said...

Hi Jayarava,

Why is "the machinery" inapplicable metaphor? If we stand on scientific position, then the whole experience and decision making process is a result of material operations in the brain (the machinery or whatever we call it) influenced by the rest of the universe. We can throw the chaos in, but that does not make it indeterministic. It just makes it unpredictable and prone to butterfly effects. We can also spice it up with some quantum effects, but that will just make it random with the randomness blown up by those butterfly effects.

Let's forget about consciousness (by which I mean experience or qualia by the way). Let's assume we're all philosophical zombies and have no inner experience whatsoever. Do we have free will in this case? Do we make choices?

Here a simple computer program.


if ( i > 5 ) {
return true;
}
else {
return false;
}


Does it make a choice? Now if i put i = 4; in from of it. How's that different?

The point I'm trying to make is that the question of free will survives modernity and has nothing to do with Christian theology at present times. Determinism just follows from the modern scientific worldview, and this is disturbing as it contradicts experience. That's why vitalism and mind-body dualism is very much alive even among people with PhDs these days.

"Who wills the will?" is just a badly formed question by Buddhist standards. There is no who.
But that is exactly my point. There is no who. Then how pretty much deterministic process can give rise to even an illusion of free choice? I'm not dualist by the way, and this is why my brain melts at this point.

Saturday, February 07, 2015

Blogger Jayarava Attwood said...

Yeah. I think I'll just leave it there, thanks.

Saturday, February 07, 2015

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