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Blogger Dubois David said...

Well put, Jayarava !

But what about consciousness ?

Whatever be the case regarding the reality - the objectivity - of the content - the objet - of my experience, experience remains necessary. Even if we assume everything to be an illusion, an experience of that illusion is necessary for that illusion to manifest as illusion or whatever. Hence experiencing (anubhava, dṛśi) is not itself an objet. It, in that sense, transcends the objet. And the Self is one of those objets. Therefore, consciousness (cit, saṃvit) is not the body, nor the mind. Because the body is an objet for consciousness, like this table. Because thoughts and feelings pass, like clouds in the sky.

This argument is a very strong one, I believe, in favor of the thesis that consciousness is not the body, not any physical phenomena.

What, will you ask, is the relevance to the question of supernatural belief ? The relevance is this : in so-called spiritual circles, this affirmation that consciousness or awareness is not an objet functions as a cornerstone for all sorts of beliefs in the supernatural. Because if consciousness is not an objet, a thing, then we know of at least one instance of a, literally, supernatural entity - even if consciousness is not a thing proper. Then isn't the door open for all sorts of supernatural things ? If consciousness is evidently supernatural, then why not ghosts, souls, or anything else ?

I contend that supernatural beliefs won't be threatened as long as this argument stands. This argument is detailed in many non-dualists texts - vedanta, but also some admittedly strange brands of buddhism, like dzogchen.
Buddhism itself doesn't offer any answer to this argument. There is a chapter on Vedānta in Nakamura's History of Early Vedanta Philosophy. This chapter is as thick as the evidence is thin. Buddhism didn't answer, as you know, to the challenge of non buddhists non dualisms. To this day, only clichés remain.

So what would you answer ?

Sunday, March 17, 2013

Blogger Jayarava said...

Hi David

Experience is an object - it is the object of the mind sense (manas) and gives rise to mind-cognition (mano-viññāna). It is also, though I'm not sure of the traditional terminology for this, the object of reflexive awareness. Thus you know that you are having an experience.

Thus experience does not transcend anything. Consciousness is always consciousness *of* something, even if only consciousness of itself - Buddhist theory does not make an entity out of cognition. Therefore your argument doesn't stand scrutiny. What you are doing is asserting a belief about consciousness not an argument anyway.

Think about it. If consciousness was not an object how could you know anything about it? In order for there to be knowledge, and you are claiming to have certain knowledge of the nature of consciousness, then it must be an object of cognition. But your knowledge proclaims that consciousness is not an object (and thus cannot be known in any form) and thus you are caught in a contradiction. You can't know what you claim to know, if what you know is true! You can only have that knowledge if your claim is false.

Thus we need not proceed with a detailed critique of your ideas because the fundamental premise on which they are built is false, and this falsifies the whole edifice. QED.

Sunday, March 17, 2013

Blogger Dubois David said...

Did you receive my last comment ?

Regards
D. Dubois

Tuesday, March 26, 2013

Blogger Jayarava said...

Apparently not.

Tuesday, March 26, 2013

Blogger Dubois David said...

Hi,
My question was about reflexive awareness and ist implications within the buddhist purview:

What, then, is reflexive awareness (sva-saṃvedana) ?
And if awareness (same as consciousness) is an object, then does that mean that you reject the difference between subjet and object ? But then, how do you explain that all objects are not aware ?
You say all awareness is awareness of an object. All awareness is "aware of", for sure. And THAT is what I mean by "transcendence". But of an "object" ? And why would, for that matter, awareness need be an object ? By "object", I mean what is delimited in space, time and shape, and what is devoid of awareness.
If all awareness is awareness of an objet, then reflexive awareness - necessary to account for memory and other instances of "awareness of awareness" - would be awareness of awareness as an object. But how could that be ? By awareness, I mean the power to manifest, to make known (and that is also the meaning of "cum-sciencia" : "with knowledge"). How can awareness be manifested as that which manifests while retaining its "manifesting" aspect ? Wouldn't that be like trying to conceive a round square ?
And if awareness can be known only as an objet, then who knows that objet ? Another awareness, meaning another cognition ? But that cognition would require another cognition to be known as an objet, and so on, ad infinitum. And so reflexive awareness would never come about. So awareness of an object isn't itself an object of awareness.
Another problem would be that, as every cognition last only one instant, reflexive awareness would need to be a cognition of a past cognition. But that would require to posit a substrate for those cognitions.
By the way, saying that reflexive awareness is also cognition of an objet is the position of the Nyāya. The (Buddhist) idea of reflexive awareness was precisely designed to avoid having to posit a substratum of cognition : every cognition, every awareness, is both self-aware and aware of the objet, simultaneously. But this aspect of self-awareness (even without positing a Self), how could it be awareness of an object ? Rather, it is a direct (sākṣāt), immediate cognition, an intuition of the most radical kind. All reflexive awareness is aware of... itself, but not as an object. It knows itself by itself, without objectification, hence without being delimited in space and time and shape. The Buddhist metaphor is that of a lamp. A lamp illuminates objects, but doesn't need another lamp to manifest itself.
An objection to that being used as an argument for belief in supernatural could be to ask whether that awareness can exists without a brain - independently of a brain.
Regards,
David D.

Tuesday, March 26, 2013

Blogger Jayarava said...

Hi David,

I can't really speak to those questions which are based in an unfamiliar jargon because I have no idea what the underlying assumptions are. None of the Sanskrit words you carefully supply are familiar to me. I'm not even sure why you want to use that jargon on me? It seems more than a little weird.

The argument here is not being made on traditional grounds in any case. If you read my essay again you will see that.

I think you must have dialled a wrong number...

Tuesday, March 26, 2013

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