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Blogger Dharma Sanctuary said...

Some interesting thoughts about assumptions that we non-scholars make. You're right Jayarava, that it is all too easy to hold a view and then back it up with somebody's scriptural interpretation. I like the free form, amateur positioning, and recognize that I am doing this without much solid backup. Oh well - I've always winged it and went with what felt right to me. Throw it against the ceiling and see if it sticks. I suppose it's not that random on my part, but when I look closer, as in your article, notions of really having a grip on Buddhist epistemology seem far fetched. What do I know? I like the feeling part, the connection with spirit and all the ephemeral qualities of the Buddha mystique (spoken like a true amateur).

I like trying to understand what all the different view points are and trying some of them on for size. I get that there isn't one correct interpretation. So, why bother defending one of them, when you can have a look at all of them? Holding a view is joining a club, and wanting to wear a name tag. I identify with that part of Buddhism that points out the fallacy of fixed view. This helps me bring it back around to a helpful place where I don't have to discount myself for not being a professional.

Friday, August 19, 2011

OpenID meaningness said...

These are all good points, and highly relevant to my experience as an amateur historian of Buddhism.

JSTOR, the online collection that houses most of the relevant scholarly literature, is apparently unwilling to grant access to individuals for any amount of money. I can't imagine what business logic there could be for that. For me, it's increasingly a problem.

I was a "Visiting Scholar" at Stanford for a few years long ago. In practice, that meant I had access to their library and gym, in exchange for giving a couple of talks each year. I've been thinking I might see if I can find a friendly academic Buddhologist who could grant me JSTOR access in exchange for something-or-other. Something you might investigate also.

I'm almost perfectly ignorant about early Buddhism, but what I've read of Schopen's stuff, recently, confirmed my pre-existing bias against taking scripture as history. The more I've dug around in the history of Tibetan Buddhism, the more I've come to regard all texts as primarily propaganda fiction unless/until proven otherwise.

Friday, August 19, 2011

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Saturday, August 20, 2011

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Saturday, August 20, 2011

Blogger Jayarava said...

I've been away on our Order Convention.

@Dharma Sanctuary. Yes, but if you don't get off the fence and take a position, you never know what you think, or have the chance to test it. It is important to know what you think, and why, and to be conscious about it.

@Daivd JSTOR like other journal aggregators see their main market as academic institutions. I suspect that like many wholesalers they don't really want to deal with individuals, and so they price their wares out of our range. There is usually a way around it if one if tenacious: especially the "Interlibrary Loan" Scheme. Hard times may have affected this, but it's worth asking your local public library what service they offer.

@Jeffrey. Thanks for posting your thoughts. The first few paragraphs give no indication where you're going with it, and I'm pretty tired after a weekend away, so I'll probably not read it. If you going to write an essay in response to me, then I suggest you take the time to structure it, and give me some idea of why I should keep reading after the first paragraph.

Sorry chaps, that's al I'm good for at the moment. Next week's blog is looming, and the Western Buddhist Review has a new editor and is being revived, so I'm keen to get something to him for publication.

Monday, August 22, 2011

Blogger Aleix said...

Very interesting post. But don't you think that, outside the texts, everything becomes a matter of opinion?
And when I say texts I mean the oral texts as well, i.e. what the Buddhist masters of our time say, even though they disagree (like ancient Buddhist texts from different traditions).
Maybe that was your point and I didn't understand.
Looking forward to read more!
Best,
Aleix

Wednesday, August 24, 2011

Blogger Jayarava said...

Hi Aleix,

I'm not quite sure what you mean by "outside the texts". But in any case my point was not about that - in fact my point can be taken on face value: the pros and cons of amateur vs professional scholarship, with some critique of amateurs because most (but not al) of my readers are non-professionals.

However I can tell you that the texts themselves often disagree with each other. At times they are vague and open to interpretation, and have been interpreted many different ways. And at times it is clear that no one, not even the redoubtable Buddhaghosa, appears to understand what a text says - they are completely, and probably forever, obscure.

And the Buddhist masters are no more consistent or accurate than the texts. Indeed one of the features of contemporary Buddhist (even contemporary Theravāda) discourse is the vast extent to which it disagrees with the Pāli texts - a theme I have pursued on my blog for years now. See for instance my recent post on the Two Truths debacle.

Where there is textual or verbal disagreement, or vagueness, or obscurity (or paradox) then yes, understanding is a matter of interpretation and opinion. I'm often arguing for a particular reading of the text because I think it makes more sense than the others.

To get beyond opinion, one must reference experience. But all too often we over-generalise from our experience and that just leads to opinions again.

There is a tendency to opt for the lowest common denominator. The idea is that the things we all have in common must be authentic and 'original', but there is so little of it that Buddhism starts to see like a set of very simplistic axioms which are of no use to anyone. I think the idea of a single founder of Buddhism is probably wrong from our point of view. Buddhism is not a single universe arising from a Big Bang. It is multiple universes with some in series, but many in parallel as well.

Cheers
Jayarava

Wednesday, August 24, 2011

OpenID meaningness said...

"I think the idea of a single founder of Buddhism is probably wrong from our point of view."

I'm wondering how to read this intriguing suggestion! I have had a gut suspicion that pre-sectarian Buddhism might be mythical. Perhaps the early Buddhist schools were generated not by a series of schisms but by a coalescence of diverse sramana lineages around a shared popular origin legend. That might explain how they got to be so different so quickly: they were different from the beginning, and actually became more similar during the early period. I know almost nothing about early Buddhist history, though, so that might be wildly implausible. But perhaps it is what you are suggesting here?

I've just started reading Gombrich's What the Buddha Thought on your recommendation, btw.

Wednesday, August 24, 2011

Blogger Jayarava said...

Hi David,

I may have been unnecessarily enigmatic. I do think there was a person called the Buddha. But after him "Buddhism" was repeated reinvented so that it makes sense for someone to trace their lineage to Padmasambhava, Tsongakpa, Milarepa, Hakuin, Kūkai, Buddhaghosa, Shinran etc. Buddhism now is pluralistic and often incompatible.

As I've said before the linear branching image of the tree is completely wrong for all India religion. The braided stream, forking and recombining is more like it. The Tantric synthesis was a particularly inclusive one.

I don't think they got different quickly - I think it took centuries. But our earliest records come from late in that period and are smeared out over time, and have no internal sense of development because the very notion of ideas developing is hostile to the late Vedic/Early Hindu period. Truths are eternal - even in Pāli. The records only ceased changing when written down, and even then scribal errors crept in.

I think you will enjoy Gombrich's book. I attended the lectures the book is based on and for me they were a revelation! However I'm beginning to doubt the idea that Buddhists were in direct contact with Upaniṣadic sages. They seem to be informed on a social level, but ignorant of the esoteric doctrines of the Upaniṣads.

There's doubt in my mind about what period each group of texts (Vedic and Brahmin) represent, and during what period they might have over-lapped.

My current thinking is that ātta in Pāli is not in fact a response to the Upaniṣadic ātman, or if it is, then it is entirely distorted from the original - the Upaniṣads are not really concerned with personal identity or with personal continuity: they are concerned with transpersonal identity, and impersonal post-mortem continuity. The Pāli texts are concerned with the polar opposite of this. If the Buddha did study with Upaniṣadic sages as Alexander Wynne claims, then he was a very poor student.

Wednesday, August 24, 2011

Anonymous Anonymous said...

But the question clearly has devo in the nominative case which means that deva is the agent (or subject) of the verb. Therefore the one thing it cannot mean is "Will you become a deva?" This would require deva to be in the accusative case, and a pronoun in the nominative, in a construction such as: ko tvaṃ devaṃ bhavissati?

The verb bhū is not transitive; it cannot have an accusative depending on it. The construction you give in the last sentence is not a correct one.

H.I.

Sunday, September 04, 2011

Blogger Jayarava said...

I finally got around to asking my Pāli mentor about this issue of the intransitive bhū. I did indeed have this wrong and have changed my article accordingly - mainly be removing a section of incorrect argument. The main point of that section remains the same.

Friday, December 09, 2011

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