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Blogger Hridaya artha said...

Thanks for another interesting blog.

Some things that came to mind. I don't know about assimilating ṛta (cosmic order) and satya (truth) (W. Norman Brown), but Marcel Detienne (The Masters of Truth in Archaic Greece) does establish a link between ṛta and the Greek Aletheia (truth). He has some very interesting things to say about Aletheia and those authorised to proclaim the (official) Truth (soothsayer, aedes and the king when doing justice). This Truth has religious roots and is not one's ordinary truth, or even a philosophical truth. The official Truth-sayers have the power of attributing the status of Truth to something by their authority. It's a Truth that seems to function like a sort of official version or ideology.

As for the difference between the Vedic and the Buddhist act of Truth, it seems to me there may be a parallel with the evolution of the meaning of the word karma, that initially referred to a ritual act (and was hence more of a magical nature) and later became associated with the sole effect of virtuous and non-virtuous actions. The "magic" is no longer due to a ritual act, but to virtuous actions in the past. E.g. Jataka 35 (http://home.earthlink.net/~brelief1/jataka.html). I see them still as being of a similar nature. Some sort of magic is still operating (see Nietzsche on cause and effect in The Gay Science). And that magic is inherent to "the Truth", as it is proclaimed.

Friday, November 01, 2013

Blogger Jayarava Attwood said...

Hiya

My first thought about supposed establishment of intellectual links between Vedic India and Greece is *when* are we talking about, and what evidence? The first recorded contact is probably when Alexander the Macedonian Butcher crossed the Indus in ca. 327BC. Vedic India is usually divided into early, middle and late (pre 1000 BC; 1000-500 BC; 500-0 BC). When is the connection? And how did they span the 1000's of miles in between, especially given that the territory between was occupied by a huge powerful empire hostile to both sides for most of the time?

On the other hand all the Indo-European peoples seem to share certain relations to truth: there are both Upaniṣadic and Celtic references to "ordeals of truth" involving holding a heated axe-head for example. There is no question of cultural links between Celts and Vedics, but the shared cultural history can account for it.

Point taken about the evolution of the word karma. But it undergoes this evolution outside the Buddhist milieu where it never means 'ritual action', but always and only 'moral action'. Buddhist magic never depended on ritual actions. Indeed Buddhists have always denounced the Vedic obsession with rites and rituals (śīla-vrata parāmārśa; aka the 3rd fetter) as hindrances to progress on the path to liberation. See also the story of the conversion of the Kassapa brothers (Vin i.23).

The first Indian evidence of the evolution you are thinking of is found in the Upaniṣads - karma appears as a moral (or at least quasi-moral) act in the Bṛhadāraṇyaka Upaniṣad (BU) which has led to a lot of speculation about where they got the idea and why the Vedic ideas of ritual action began to lose their sway. My argument in the JOCBS Vol 3 (following Michael Witzel) and outlined here is that the idea came from Zoroastrian Iran. I've proposed an outline of how karma qua moral action was assimilated from incoming Iranian tribes (including the Śākyas) in this blog post and submitted a fuller version for review at a journal (waiting to hear). It's significant that the BU was written in Kosala-Videha exactly where they might have come into contact with the incomers.

Friday, November 01, 2013

Blogger Hridaya artha said...

Thank your for your answer and your link (Possible history...). For the links at various stages of history between India and Greece, see The Shape of Ancient Thought: Comparative Studies in Greek and Indian Philosophies by Thomas McEvilley.

Saturday, November 02, 2013

Blogger Jayarava Attwood said...

Yeah I've seen that book. Couldn't get into it - I know next to nothing about the Greeks and have not much interest in them so it was largely beyond my ken. To my knowledge I've never seen an Indologist, let alone a Buddhist refer to the book. David Chapman once commented on my blog that all of Buddhism came from Greece, but I never took that seriously. McEvilley seems not to have made much impact in the mainstream. Though George Thompson wrote an obit for him.

Saturday, November 02, 2013

Blogger sphairos said...

Dear Jayarave Attwood,

please note, there is no single occurence of the compound "saccakiriyā" in the whole corpus of Pāli texts. There is even no compound "saccikiriyā" in the Pāli text. The only word that has some resemblance is "saccHikiriyā"'
http://dsalsrv02.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/philologic/getobject.pl?c.3:1:2875.pali

Unfortunately, it has no connection with the Sanskrit "satya".

It is derived from the Sk. "sākṣāt kṛ" - so to say "to make something eyeful":

the P. form being *saccha˚ (=sa3+akṣ, as in akkhi), with change of ˚a to ˚i before kṛ. See also sakkhiŋ karoti] to see with one's eyes, to realize, to experience for oneself.
http://dsalsrv02.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/philologic/getobject.pl?c.3:1:2874.pali

So, unfortunately, we have no possibility to connect the Pāli sacchikaroti/sacchikiriyā to the Vedic satyakriyā and beatiful findings and speculations of Thieme, Brown, Luders, Witzel and so on, unless you find some complex linguistic argument/substantiation for the alleged connection.

With best regards,
sphairos

Sunday, November 03, 2013

Blogger sphairos said...

the P. form being *saccha˚ (=sa3+akṣ, as in akkhi), with change of ˚a to ˚i before kṛ. See also sakkhiŋ karoti] to see with one's eyes, to realize, to experience for oneself.

http://dsalsrv02.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/philologic/getobject.pl?c.3:1:2874.pali

Sunday, November 03, 2013

Blogger sphairos said...

Dear Jayarave,
I'm new to this platform, hope you have got my comment.
With best regards,
sphairos

Sunday, November 03, 2013

Blogger Hridaya artha said...

Perhaps we ought to leave Indologists some more time to discover and explore the book or its subject. Comparatism is still frowned upon, but without it we have a huge black hole and all of a sudden a young prince from Macedonia gets it in his head to cross the Indus in 327BC. He and his compatriots are wildly enthusiastic about all the new and very different ways of thought they encounter... I am afraid this sort of romantic view doesn't do much for me.

McEvelley suggests a mutual influence in 5 phases. According to him, before the Greek influence in India, India influenced the pre-Socratic philosphers. Whether all this is the case I don't know, but he gives some compelling arguments. I prefer his comparative approach to that of a default theory of nothing before 327BC, which doesn't make sense.

Sunday, November 03, 2013

Blogger sphairos said...

Concerning McEvilley I would mention that lots of Indologists and Buddhologists adore his writings in general and his magnum opus "Shape of Ancient Thought" in particular.

The book is discussed in and by:
J. Westerhoff. 2009. Nagarjuna's Madhyamaka: A Philosophical Introduction. Oxford University Press

J. Ganeri. The concealed art of the soul: Theories of self and practices of truth in Indian ethics and epistemology. Oxford University Press

J. Morley. 2008.Embodied consciousness in tantric yoga and the phenomenology of Merleau-Ponty. Religion and the Arts

C. Chapple. 2008. Yoga and the Luminous: Patañjali's Spiritual Path to Freedom. SUNY Press

P.G. Patel. Aksara as a Linguistic Unit in Brahmi Scripts
- Indic Scripts: Palaeographic and Linguistic Perspectives, 2007 D.K.

A. Kuzminski. 2008. Pyrrhonism: how the ancient Greeks reinvented Buddhism. Lexington Books

A Kuzminski. 2007. Pyrrhonism and the Mādhyamaka. Philosophy East and West,

P Kabay. 2013. Interpreting the Divyadhvani: On Why the Digambara Sect Is Right about the Nature of the Kevalin. Philosophy East and West

WR Kloetzli. Ptolemy and Purāṇa: Gods Born as Men - Journal of Indian philosophy, 2010 - Springer

etc.

Sunday, November 03, 2013

Blogger Jayarava Attwood said...

Dear Sphairos

Anussaritvā sataṃ dhammaṃ, paramatthaṃ vicintayaṃ;
Akāsi saccakiriyaṃ, yaṃ loke dhuvasassataṃ. (Cariyāpiṭakapāḷi 87)

‘‘Kiṃ pana, mahārāja, atthi loke saccaṃ nāma, yena saccavādino saccakiriyaṃ karontī’’ti? ‘‘Āma, bhante, atthi loke saccaṃ nāma, saccena, bhante nāgasena, saccavādino saccakiriyaṃ katvā devaṃ vassāpenti, aggiṃ nibbāpenti, visaṃ paṭihananti, aññampi vividhaṃ kattabbaṃ karontī’’ti. (Milindapañha 120; also 121-2)

And a great many references to the term in the Aṭṭhakathā, particularly in the Jātaka-aṭṭhakathā, and añña literature. So your assertion about "the whole Pāḷi corpus" is simply wrong. Though perhaps you meant the Nikāyas? And while the name for the act is not found alongside examples of it in the Nikāyas, the identity of the acts is nowhere in doubt. We see it in practice if not in name.

Nor can we argue that the absence of the name for the practice in the Nikāyas is in any way significant: the absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. I cite the case of Aṅgulimāla precisely because it is the Nikāyas. What's more if you look up "saccena AND hotu" you will find many examples of the phenomena in practice including one in the Suttanipāta suggesting some antiquity.

Your digression down the road of sacchi is pointless. It's an entirely different word with no connection to the discussion at hand. Nor is the word used in the same way (with an imperative). What were you thinking?

When you say "So, unfortunately, we have no possibility to connect the Pāli sacchikaroti/sacchikiriyā to the Vedic satyakriyā" apart from the complete irrelevance of sacchi to sacca, this is exactly what I have already said at some length here. I keep telling people they need to read carefully before commenting on my essays and keep on topic. You seem to have missed one of my main points entirely.

Indeed I say that there is no such thing as a Vedic *satyakriyā either in name (since the word is not found in any Vedic text) or in practice (since the analogue action indicated by 'satyavācena... bhavatu/astu' is not found in any vedic text). I say, contra Burlingham, Brown and Thompson, that the phenomenon is a Buddhist one. However we have to leave open the possibility of a Vedic influence as we must in all things Buddhist, because Buddhism is heavily influenced by Vedic ideas and practices.








Sunday, November 03, 2013

Blogger sphairos said...

excuse me, I am wrong: of course, there is the word "saccakiriyā", it is only the verb "saccakaroti" which is lacking.

with best regards,
sphairos

Sunday, November 03, 2013

Blogger Jayarava Attwood said...

Yes indeed. And the finite form of the verb is of no relevance here - what interests us is the kṛtya or future passive participle kiriyā 'what ought to be done', i.e. 'an action'. One could not have a 'verb' saccakaroti anyway. One can't form compounds with nouns and finite verbs and, as far as I know, satya/sacca can't function as a preverb. Thus we cannot be surprised that an impossible form is "lacking".

BTW I am unfamiliar with the authors you cite except for Westerhoff - McEvilley simply does not crop up in my indological reading. Westerhoff is writing about that old bore, Nāgārjuna, by which time Buddhism has spread far beyond India (to China for example) and we have documentary evidence of Greek ambassadors visiting Pataliputra etc. Influence in either direction at that point is far from controversial (or IMO interesting).

The J. Morley article looks interesting though. I'm writing about an aspect of embodied consciousness for next week.

Sunday, November 03, 2013

Blogger sphairos said...

Actually, the phenomenon of "satyakriyā" of course exists in the Vedic/Brahmanic literature.

There is a chapter ""Die Satyakriyā in der brahmanischen Literatur" in the Luders and Alsdorf's "Varuna und das Rta", vol.2, 1959. (in German)

The book is in public domain, here is a link to this chapter:
http://digi20.digitale-sammlungen.de/de/fs1/object/display/bsb00040610_00182.html

They cite many instances, for example:
"patitve tena satyena devās taṃ pradiśantu me".

Sunday, November 03, 2013

Blogger Jayarava Attwood said...

Again, as I say in my essays examples from the Mahābhārata (you have cited Mbh 3.54.17) need to be looked at carefully and the question of whether they are genuinely Vedic must be asked. Isn't it more likely they were picked up from Buddhists and incorporated into the grab-bag of Indian myth that is the MBh? We know for example that some Dhammapada verses were found as floating stories and occur in both Jain and Vedic literature.

Sadly I don't read German, so I can't make out their argument and I can't see how they have discussed the relationship between the two bodies of literature and their evaluation of what the references might signify.

Sunday, November 03, 2013

Blogger sphairos said...

saccakaroti may well have been formed as sacchikaroti, which we do have and which in its place is awkward (what is "sākṣāt kṛ"?), "sākṣa-" doesn't work there as a preverb but rather as a part of complex root. This form is almost impossible, so it is surprising that it is in existence, and so it is not so evident why the other resembling awkward form is not in existence. The possibility of the finite form in my opinion is of some relevance here.

Actually, the absolutive "-kṛtya" is out of place in this discussion because kriyā is just an abstract nominal formation from the root "kṛ", and the Pāli kiriya/kiriyā is just a corresponding form with an expected epenthetic vowel.

Sunday, November 03, 2013

Blogger Jayarava Attwood said...

Sorry, yes kiriyā is an abstract noun rather than a kṛtya. But it still just means 'act, action'.

So, going back to my grammar books I now recall that some words can form a special class of preverb known in Sanskrit as "cvi suffix". For cvi suffix a noun like satya changes to satyī and can be prefixed to forms of √kṛ (with the sense of making into the noun) or √bhū (becoming the noun).

If they existed the forms satyī√kṛ would mean 'making true' while satyī√bhū would mean 'becoming true'. I can't find a systematic account of the Pāli morphology, but if we take sacchikaroti as a model then the -ī of Sanskrit is shortened and we would expect the Pāli form of satyīkaroti to be saccikaroti.

But these forms do not exist either in Pāḷi or Sanskrit so far as I can see. And because of the semantics the cvi suffixes the existence of the form saccakiriyā in no way implies a cvi form saccikaroti. Indeed the change of sense in the cvi would make saccikaroti irrelevant if it existed. What's more if you think about it the Indian worldview does not really allow for making something true - it is either true or not true. Nothing anyone could say would make a truth into a falsehood or vice versa. Truth is always true by it's very nature, and falsity is always false.

It is always useful to review grammatical forms, especially ones that have become hazy with time. But if there is any relevance to this discussion beyond revising grammar then I fail to see it.

So enough of this.

Sunday, November 03, 2013

Blogger Jayarava Attwood said...

Comparatism is still frowned upon... I prefer his comparative approach to that of a default theory of nothing before 327BC, which doesn't make sense."

Actually it does make sense. As I said the Achaemenids were hostile to both Greeks and Indians and dominated the 1000s of miles between them for centuries up to Alexander. Makes perfect sense.

Iranian influence by contrast on early Buddhist is pretty obvious - I have published one article on this, with another presently being reviewed. All essayed in blog form in the last year or two. I'm looking for a third angle at present in order to get a hat-trick on this subject.

To the best of my knowledge there is no similar Greek influence in early Buddhism.

To me the comparativist approach is alive and well and providing me with published articles in academic journals. I'm just reading Michael Witzel's magnum opus on comparative mythology. A great deal has been published on comparing Buddhist and Vedic culture in recent years; and we are seeing an explosion of articles and books comparing Pāli texts with Chinese counterparts. So I'm not sure what frowning you are referring to.

Sunday, November 03, 2013

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