"I think the Buddha was an empirical realist - he has no explicit quarrel with the idea that there are objects of the senses, but he has nothing definite or positive to say about such objects or their natures."
What about Dhamma itself though? The Buddha seems to say things about Dhamma as an existent reality independent of any of his experience (I trust you know these).
Just curious about what your thoughts are on those. Thanks!
I'm not sure which passages you are referring to. However I know the general territory. Ontology is about what exists. Things. Principles, say for instance the laws of physics can't be said to 'exist' in the same way. Dhamma is a principle.
What's more if you have been following my argument you will know that I consider the Dharma to apply to the mind, not to the (external) world. As I am emphasising above I don't think the Buddha had much to say about the world, although he does seem to acknowledge that there are 'things' that we are aware 'of'.
I think you could look for a long time and find no Pāli equivalent of the words "existent reality independent of experience". "The Dhamma" (as opposed to just dhammas) seems to me to refer to paṭiccasamuppāda which in my view describes the way that mental phenomena (dhammas) arises in the mind. It is a general principle that seems to hold good for all of the content of our minds and as a general principle one can find many variations on how it is applied. Not just 12 nidanas, for instance, but sometimes 10, or 14; and only four Ariyasacca.
Perhaps there is a branch of ontology that deals with principles and ordering forces which I am unaware of?
Now all of this holds for early Buddhism, but begins to break down later in the history of Buddhist Ideas. By the time the idea of the Mahāyāna idea of the Dharmakāya becomes firmly established then it does seem to have some 'existence'. I'm quite fond of Kūkai's exegesis on this question. To Kūkai all forms were the body of the Dharmakāya, all sounds its voice, and all mental activity its mind. At first glance it is eternalistic, but the underlying idea is that it is all equivalent to śūnyatā so I think it works and is quite a beautiful notion.
Anyway do let me know if you had specific Pāli passages in mind.
I think you have made some important points here. I don't think the Buddha was all concerned about ontology but epistomology.
I think people sometimes misunderstand that the the three characteristics are philosophical metaphysical explanations of reality. No, it is the experience of reality.
I am not a fan of Bhikkhu Bodhi for various reasons. To me he represents a fundamentalist of the Therevada tradition that is very close minded.
Just an example take a look at his childish response given in a review to Gombrich's book, "How Buddhism Began" (http://www.buddhistethics.org/4/bodhi1.html):
"To my mind, the texts of the four Nikāyas form a strikingly consistent and harmonious edifice, and I am confident that the apparent inconsistencies are not indicative of internal fissuring but of subtle variations of method that would be clear to those with sufficient insight."
"Sufficient Insight?" Gombrich is one of the leading Buddhist scholars of the world who has spent over 40 years studying it.
Another thing that he doesn't even meditate due to headaches!
While I think it is useful to critique specific statements made by leading translators as I am doing here, I am uncomfortable with generalised and sweeping denouncements. We all owe Bhikkhu Bodhi a debt of gratitude for his excellent translations from the Pāli, including clear contemporary English, and fulsome notes. I may not agree with all of his exegesis but I am in awe of his scholarship and energy. I only wish I could be more like him!
On the other hand I've met, and occasionally correspond with Richard Gombrich and have found him generous and extremely insightful about Buddhist doctrine. However he is neither a Buddhist nor a meditator. Also he is open to criticism on many fronts as anyone familiar with the scholarly literature would know. In fact he is a favourite target of criticism in some quarters as a figure-head for conservative views! I admire and respect him greatly, but there is nothing sacrosanct about his views.
Let's stick to your views about what I've written and leave off bad mouthing our betters in public. It's unseemly and I won't publish any more such comments.
Regards Jayarava
Saturday, March 14, 2009
[Image]Some time back I wrote a post about the early Buddhist attitude to ontology - the issue of what exists, and what the nature of that existence is. I argued that ontology plays no part in the Buddha's presentation of his teaching. However in a note to the Flower Sutta (SN 22:94; PTS S iii.138-140) Bhikkhu Bodhi, one of the foremost authorities on Theravāda Buddhism, states "The Buddha's utterances at 22:94, for example, show that he did not hesitate to make pronouncements with a clear ontological import when they were called for" (Bodhi 2000 : 734, n.29). I want to look at key passages in this sutta, and examine the claim that they have an "ontological import".
The Flower Sutta begins like this: Sāvatthinidānaṃ. ‘‘Nāhaṃ, bhikkhave, lokena vivadāmi, lokova mayā vivadati. Na, bhikkhave, dhammavādī kenaci lokasmiṃ vivadati. Yaṃ, bhikkhave, natthisammataṃ loke paṇḍitānaṃ, ahampi taṃ ‘natthī’ti vadāmi. Yaṃ, bhikkhave, atthisammataṃ loke paṇḍitānaṃ, ahampi taṃ ‘atthī’ti vadāmi’’.At Sāvatthi: Bhikkhus I don't dispute with the world, the world disputes with me. A Dhammavādin doesn't quarrel with anyone in the world. That which the wise in the world agree "it does not exist (na atthi), I too say "it doesn't exist". That which the wise in the world agree "it exists" (atthi), I too say "it exists". Dhammavādī is an adjective which describes someone who professes, or speaks, Dhamma. Vāda is an argument, view, or ideology; and the -in suffix (vādin) is a possessive - someone who has that view. In my translation I've adopted Dhammavādin (the uninflected form) because it is on the model of Theravādin, or Yogacārin and should be familiar enough. I quite like the term Dhammavādin.*
The sutta continues by asking what it is that the wise agree doesn't exist in the world? The answer is forms, feelings, perceptions, volitions, and consciousness that are permanent, stable, eternal, not subject to change do not exist in the world. These are of course the five khandhas, aka the apparatus of experience. What the wise agree as existing in the world are khandhas that are impermanent, suffering and subject to change.
Taken at face value this passage we might read this as an ontological statement. However I think we need to be quite careful. The problem is with the word loka. Literally it means 'world', and Bhikkhu Bodhi is clearly taking it to mean that the khandhas exist in some impermanent sense in the world (loke/lokasmiṃ). However in his long essay on the word on 'loka' Jan Gonda (1966) shows that the original meaning of the word was something like 'the visible world' or 'the world of experience'. The original image is one of a clearing in a forest - loka is what can be seen clearly, what appears to the mind. On the physical level this means the sensual world. However it also has the connotation that we have in English with regard to the world - one can live in 'one's own world' for instance. In this case the meaning is more personal, it is a psychological term. Gonda is concerned with Vedic literature which predates the Buddha, but he establishes the metaphorical/psychological use of the word. Sue Hamilton (2000) has shown that this is also how the Buddha uses the world loka. Hamilton links loka and khandha together as part of an elaborate extended metaphor developed by the Buddha for describing the subjective pole of experience.
So I would paraphrase the above as: in the world of experience, there is nothing in that experience which is lasting, satisfying, or independent of experience. Read in this way there is nothing here of ontological import. Bhikkhu Bodhi is mislead by reading loka literally rather than metaphorically. I think the Buddha was an empirical realist - he has no explicit quarrel with the idea that there are objects of the senses, but he has nothing definite or positive to say about such objects or their natures.
To play the devils advocate for a moment, if we were to accept Bhikkhu Bodhi's assertion that the Flower Sutta has something ontological to say, then what would it be saying? Presuming also that Bhikkhu Bodhi, going along with orthodox Theravada doctrine, accepts that the khandhas are a complete definition of reality, then what is being said in this sutta is that nothing definite can be said about the reality that Bhikkhu Bodhi is thinking of. In this view nothing at all is stable. There is nothing in this view on which to pin an ontology. Nothing exists in fact. So accepting the proposition we are lead to a paradox - one that is often overlooked. The way out of this is provided by Hamilton. What the Buddha is describing is not reality but experience. If reality really were so fluid we could not experience it. By necessity we must water down the statement that 'everything changes' to 'everything changes, but some things change slowly enough for us to experience them as persisting'. In fact everything that we experience as a something, must change slowly else we wouldn't experience it as a something. If something is there one second and gone the next, we usually assume that it was a trick of the mind (recalling that the Buddha had only his bare senses and no camera or other recording equipment!). So things must actually exist for a time in order for us to experience them.
However Hamilton's is a more elegant view. It is our experience of things which is changing from moment to moment, which is never satisfying. The fact that our experience changes from moment to moment says nothing about the nature of reality. It is a comment on the nature of consciousness and awareness. This is a statement that can be taken at face value, without having to back off to allow for practicalities. In fact it has important practical implications for Buddhists in the sense that it directs our attention not to the world as such, but to the world of experience.
The sutta later describes each of the khandhas as "loke lokadhammo", which Bikkhu Bodhi translates as "a world-phenomena in the world". It is this that the Buddha has awoken to (abhisambujjhati) and realised (abhisameti). If we read loka as something more like 'world of experience' then the Buddha is saying that he has understood the elements of experience in the world of experience. I think we can see this as further vindication of Hamilton's approach to the subject. Her view is that the khandhas are not the sum total of existence, but the elements of, or by which we have, experiences. What the Buddha was interested in was understanding the very process whereby we have experiences, and why we misinterpret them to our detriment. The nature of the world as an externally existing 'something' (kiñci) is not relevant to this question, because the Buddha, like many Western thinkers, took the view that we could not directly touch that something. We have only the information of our senses and what our mind makes of them. It is by understanding the mechanics of the process - by watching it in action - and disentangling ourselves from the stories we tell about experience, that we can free ourselves from the erroneous conclusions that cause us suffering.
Notes * Members of the Western Buddhist Order are known as Dharmacārī or Dharmacāriṇī which are, respectively, the masculine and feminine nominative singular of the adjective dharmacārin. Dharma is familiar, and cāra means "going, motion, progression, course; proceeding; practising". The -in suffix, as above, is a possessive. So dharmacārin describes someone who is practising the Dharma. Dharmacārin is the stem or uninflected form and therefore gender neutral. I have argued, so far unsuccessfully, that the WBO should adopt this usage rather than the gender specific terms.
Reading Bodhi. 2000. The Connected Discourses of the Buddha : a Translation of the Saṃyutta Nikāya. Boston : Wisdom Publications. Gonda, J. 1966. Loka : World and heaven in the Veda. Amsterdam, Noord-Hollandsche U.M.Hamilton, Sue. 2000. Early Buddhism : a new approach. The I of the beholder. Richmond, Surrey : Curzon.See also: To be or not to be : the problem with ontology. Jayarava's Raves 31-10-2008
4 Comments
Close this window Jump to comment form"I think the Buddha was an empirical realist - he has no explicit quarrel with the idea that there are objects of the senses, but he has nothing definite or positive to say about such objects or their natures."
What about Dhamma itself though? The Buddha seems to say things about Dhamma as an existent reality independent of any of his experience (I trust you know these).
Just curious about what your thoughts are on those. Thanks!
Saturday, March 14, 2009
Hi Justin,
I'm not sure which passages you are referring to. However I know the general territory. Ontology is about what exists. Things. Principles, say for instance the laws of physics can't be said to 'exist' in the same way. Dhamma is a principle.
What's more if you have been following my argument you will know that I consider the Dharma to apply to the mind, not to the (external) world. As I am emphasising above I don't think the Buddha had much to say about the world, although he does seem to acknowledge that there are 'things' that we are aware 'of'.
I think you could look for a long time and find no Pāli equivalent of the words "existent reality independent of experience". "The Dhamma" (as opposed to just dhammas) seems to me to refer to paṭiccasamuppāda which in my view describes the way that mental phenomena (dhammas) arises in the mind. It is a general principle that seems to hold good for all of the content of our minds and as a general principle one can find many variations on how it is applied. Not just 12 nidanas, for instance, but sometimes 10, or 14; and only four Ariyasacca.
Perhaps there is a branch of ontology that deals with principles and ordering forces which I am unaware of?
Now all of this holds for early Buddhism, but begins to break down later in the history of Buddhist Ideas. By the time the idea of the Mahāyāna idea of the Dharmakāya becomes firmly established then it does seem to have some 'existence'. I'm quite fond of Kūkai's exegesis on this question. To Kūkai all forms were the body of the Dharmakāya, all sounds its voice, and all mental activity its mind. At first glance it is eternalistic, but the underlying idea is that it is all equivalent to śūnyatā so I think it works and is quite a beautiful notion.
Anyway do let me know if you had specific Pāli passages in mind.
Best wishes
Jayarava
Saturday, March 14, 2009
I think you have made some important points here. I don't think the Buddha was all concerned about ontology but epistomology.
I think people sometimes misunderstand that the the three characteristics are philosophical metaphysical explanations of reality. No, it is the experience of reality.
I am not a fan of Bhikkhu Bodhi for various reasons. To me he represents a fundamentalist of the Therevada tradition that is very close minded.
Just an example take a look at his childish response given in a review to Gombrich's book, "How Buddhism Began" (http://www.buddhistethics.org/4/bodhi1.html):
"To my mind, the texts of the four Nikāyas form a strikingly consistent and harmonious edifice, and I am confident that the apparent inconsistencies are not indicative of internal fissuring but of subtle variations of method that would be clear to those with sufficient insight."
"Sufficient Insight?" Gombrich is one of the leading Buddhist scholars of the world who has spent over 40 years studying it.
Another thing that he doesn't even meditate due to headaches!
--DarkDream
Saturday, March 14, 2009
While I think it is useful to critique specific statements made by leading translators as I am doing here, I am uncomfortable with generalised and sweeping denouncements. We all owe Bhikkhu Bodhi a debt of gratitude for his excellent translations from the Pāli, including clear contemporary English, and fulsome notes. I may not agree with all of his exegesis but I am in awe of his scholarship and energy. I only wish I could be more like him!
On the other hand I've met, and occasionally correspond with Richard Gombrich and have found him generous and extremely insightful about Buddhist doctrine. However he is neither a Buddhist nor a meditator. Also he is open to criticism on many fronts as anyone familiar with the scholarly literature would know. In fact he is a favourite target of criticism in some quarters as a figure-head for conservative views! I admire and respect him greatly, but there is nothing sacrosanct about his views.
Let's stick to your views about what I've written and leave off bad mouthing our betters in public. It's unseemly and I won't publish any more such comments.
Regards
Jayarava
Saturday, March 14, 2009