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Blogger Jules Evans said...

Hi Jayarava

Thanks for the fascinating post.

From a perspective of a non-Buddhist, Buddhism seems to be doing very well in the West - ideas of mindfulness and meditation have become very much accepted and absorbed both by western psychotherapy (mindfulness-CBT etc) and by western education.

I dont think the royalty will help you get Buddhism out there - Prince Charles is very into various new age philosophies but that hasn't given them much of a push.

Media celebrities are the real royalties today, so the support of say Russell Brand for transcendental meditation is no doubt helpful in getting the message out.

Buddhism in the West faces a bit of a challenge, in so far as it has been cannibalised and turned into a set of techniques which can be used without signing up to 'Buddhism'. Similar to ancient Greek philosophy, in that respect.

All best

Jules

Friday, January 20, 2012

Blogger Jayarava said...

Hi Jules

Thanks for your comments. Yes I think perhaps there is a place for celebrity endorsements, though I suspect they do as much harm as good. I would prefer to have decision makers. Compare the way that Ayn Rand got to Alan Greenspan and changed the way economies were run not just in the USA but around the world. At that level policy really makes a difference. Imagine the world today if a persuader like Greenspan had *not* thought that altruism was pointless, and that rational self-interest was the only way forward.

Russell Brand is not someone who's endorsement I would seek - quite the opposite I would encourage him to stay with TM™ where he can't do us any harm. Celebrities are only occasionally influential on policy and decision making, and usually they are one issue people. Maybe Oprah had something more. I can't think of anyone in the UK like that.

By the monarchy I did not necessarily mean Prince Charles - he's only one of many, and not where I would begin. If I was being Machiavellian I would say begin with the wives and of his children. It worked in Sāvatthī where Queen Mallikā converted and got King Pasenadi interested.

I think you over estimate the extent to which Buddhism has been cannibalised. A few news stories in recent years hardly amounts to much of an inroad from where I'm sitting. And don't forget that all those mindfulness trainers have to study a module on where the ideas come from.

But even if you were right what we ultimately want is not converts to Buddhism, but people taking responsibility for their actions, expanding and deepening their awareness, and being more empathetic. Converting to Buddhism is just a means to an end.

Regards
Jayarava

Friday, January 20, 2012

Blogger Vishvapani said...

I wonder if the key is in your mention of 'soul-searching chief executives, fresh from having lost a quest for world domination'. Might it be that new ideas and movements only gain real traction in a culture as a whole when a previous dispensation fails drastically. In which case, we need to establish Buddhism as a viable and growing part of western culture first and see what happens in the wider society.
Personally, I think it is much too soon to say what the wider impact of the mindfulness boom will be. It's only just getting going, but already it's clear that this is the most significant development in western engagement with Buddhism since the '60s counter culture, which has fuelled western Buddhism for the last 40 years.
Here's a though: might it be that the surge of stress, depression and so on that mindfulness based approaches address is, itself, the crisis I mentioned?

Friday, January 20, 2012

Blogger Jayarava said...

Hi Viśvapāṇi

Could be. The present dispensation is failing, I don't doubt that. It a lot of momentum but.

I agree about establishing Buddhism as a viable part of Western culture. I'm a bit concerned that in some quarters this seems to mean writing Buddhist poetry and ignores our great intellectual traditions, especially the European Enlightenment.

But then as you say the mindfulness boom is significant, and importantly they are integrating precisely with the scientific establishment.

Is there a surge in stress and depression? I read contradictory signs on this, certainly with respect to depression some researchers are saying that the levels have not really changed for decades. The crisis may be one of perception, but maybe that won't matter.

Friday, January 20, 2012

Blogger Vishvapani said...

Hi Jayarava

There are various western intellectual traditions, including that of poetry and some of the Buddhist poets, like WS Merwin certainly are part of it. But I understand what you mean.
The fact that hundreds of millions of dollars are reportedly being devoted to research into mindfulness, meditation etc is significant. Our society is so much more complex than that of 6th century Japan and power is diffused. There are economic, cultural, intellectual and scientific leaders as well as political ones, and they are vastly more numerous than the Japanese aristocracy.

Friday, January 20, 2012

Blogger Sabio Lantz said...

@ Jayarava

That was a fun history story and a well-woven essay. But one question haunts the essay for me.

Surely you must be interested in more than "Buddhism". For your story of the spread of Buddhism in Japan shows an opportunistic, blindly magical, politically manipulative religion. Sure, it spread through the aristocrats, but who cares. Why would we want that sort of Buddhim?

Who cares about "Buddhism" -- it is just a word. I imagine you are hoping for a spread of Buddhism that you imagine could exist -- or exists in your communities. For certainly we don't have any such example of benefitial large-scale Buddhim on the ground. Do we? Not when I look at Sri Lanka, Burma, China, Japan and others -- would we want to emulate any similar Buddhism that have spread among these countries? I see superstition, political manipulations, professional religious industries and all the normal stuff. The history of Buddhism in often-idealized Tibet is an ugly story too - from the little I have seen and from what I have heard from those who know much more than me.

Do we have any evidence at all that any form of "Buddhism" changes society in directions you may desire? Sure, we may have evidence that "In 10 minutes of sitting quietly" a person may change certain psychological changes. But that is a far stretch from social evidence. No? The research we have to date, it seems, only supports part of the equation (and even then, not as strongly as you'd imagine, perhaps). And that half only supports the Bhagavadgita quote you started with.

You mentioned David Chapman's writing, and I think he feels that hoping for the spread of renunciation-oriented Buddhism is perhaps unrealistic. So Buddhists are not agreed on the type of Buddhism that should be taught to CEOs and the Monarchy. Should, like Japan, they rely on mantra magic -- Japan tried this with Soka Gakkai (which I have some intimate knowledge). Should we support a monk class as in Tibet and Sri Lanka -- that seemed to fail. So, which Buddhism? Which attributes of Buddhism, which social effects are we looking for? Those seem all very up in the air. What if we don't care about a title, but instead analyze the practices that matter and just absorb them into a secular setting.

Sure some "leaders" (politicians, movie stars, CEOs) may convert, but I am not sure that the "Buddhism" they would spread will do what you may be hoping for.

Sorry, to be critical.

Sunday, January 22, 2012

Blogger Jayarava said...

Hi Sabio

Why are you sorry to be critical? Critical is what this blog is all about. What you've written doesn't really seem critical, it just seems angry and confused.

I've spent the last 7 years spelling out in 273 essays (about 300,000 words) what interests me about Buddhism, what I think works and what doesn't. How it might affect society positively and negatively. You read my blog. So why are you now blindly lashing out as if I had written nothing at all relevant to the question of what Buddhism is and does?!

Sunday, January 22, 2012

Blogger Swanditch said...

Upon reflection I see two factors that may need to be taken into account in any participation of Buddhism in progressive efforts:

The first is that conservatism is present in the earliest texts, the doctrinal core, of Buddhism. I mean here especially the Sigālovāda Sutta and the Buddha's description of Vajjian society in the early part of the Mahāparinibbāna Sutta (not to mention that, in offering this description to Ajātasattu, the Buddha appears to be lending implicit support to his campaign of conquest).

The second is that 1) for the majority of people, west and east, the doctrine of karma is regarded as an essential and major part of Buddhism, 2) the doctrine of karma is popularly understood as "you get what you deserve", and 3) this understanding of karma appears to facilitate, or at least not to militate against, conservative, heirarchical, traditional, and even totalitarian regimes, as touched on above.

Thursday, January 26, 2012

Blogger Jayarava said...

Hi Swanditch

I agree that these are factors that should be taken into account. I don't think they exhaust the field, but they are interesting.

Re conservatism the Buddha denies that caste has any bearing on his method or his sangha, but does not try to persuade people their ideas are wrong in general. He often accepted the social mores of the day. Indeed many of the rules of the Vinaya are created as a direct response to complaints from lay people (if the Vinaya is an accurate record of the formulation of monastic rules). When I wrote about Ajatasattu and the Buddha (Journal of Buddhist Ethics 15) I noted that the Buddha was relatively passive in relation to the king. He does not try to convert Ajatasattu, he just listens and accepts, and then lets him go when he wants to: and says to the monks "he's done for". So yes the Buddha was not really a social reformer, except that he started a community of religious practitioners that was different. But that was a long time ago.

On karma, yes, sadly this is more or less how people seem to understand it. I'm going to touch on this tomorrow in my Rave, so I won't say much more today. I think extricating karma from this way of thinking--which is the Hindu version of karma--is very difficult and the subtleties are often lost.

Recently, in privately circulating papers, Sangharakshita and Subhuti have been developing Sangharakshita's ideas on the five niyamas explaining the karma is only one of five types of conditionality. Perhaps something will be published one day.

Regards
Jayarava

Thursday, January 26, 2012

Anonymous Anonymous said...

Good stuff.

Correction: final paragraph: possibly should be 'predecessors' not 'processors'?

Thursday, February 09, 2012

Blogger Jayarava said...

@Anon. Thanks. Corrected.

Thursday, February 09, 2012

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