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Blogger جسکرن دھالیوال said...

"O Indra and Soma, the evil doers were hurled into a pit which is beginningless darkness. Not one returns from there, may your rage overpower them. [My translation]"

That's not a "gAthA," prabho. In a literal sense, a gAthA refers to a type of gAnam or kAvyam. What you are referring to can be classified more appropriately as a R^icham or mantram. I've seen the word gAthA used for the "shlokam-s" of certain jaina and bauddha sUtrANi, as well as for certain sections of the Zoroastrian Avesta, but not very often in the context of the chaturvedaH. I could be wrong though. Anyway, all the posted "translations" are a bit strange, IMO. The words duShkR^itaH, shavaH, and sahase give me the impression that there is only one sinful individual inside the vavraH, not multiple (although it could be like "स्तनयन्हंसिदुष्कृतः" which is speaking of evil doers collectively as one entity). Also, I'm not sure what "past active participle" means (I'm not a linguist or grammarian), but pravidhyatam is loTlakAra, so you are correct that the individual is requesting the two as you said, but in the present, not the past.

Wednesday, March 18, 2015

Blogger جسکرن دھالیوال said...

"Based on ideas first put forward by Michael Witzel I've speculated that the impetus to escape from a once happy rebirth eschatology was also influenced by Iranian (i.e. Zoroastrian) ideas. The vector for these ideas being an influx of Iranian tribes, including the Śākyas, whose culture gave rise to śrāmaṇa religions. Since we do not see Hell in Vedic, it's possible that the idea of Hell came from this same source. In order for this to be true the Vedic speaking people's had to leave Iran before the advent of Zoroastrianism which is difficult to date, but generally placed at about 1000 BCE."

I would assume that there was an influx of people from Central Asian region into the saptasindhavaH (Punjab and Sindh), but that the vaidikapa~nchajanAH were the first to arrive (around 2200-1600 BC). The latter tribes which attacked from Central Asia, such as the kamvoja-s, also settled for a while but most were eventually assimilated or forced back by the bhAratavishaH. Furthermore, since the first references to jaruthaH occur in the seventh (a relatively late) maNDalam in relation to vashiShThaH, I would assume that a proto-Zoroastrian asura worship must have started around 1300 BC, still before the puruShasUktam and devIsUktam were composed. Following the jaruthavadha, these parshu, mada, etc. tribes were forced to leave the saptasindhavaH and return to Balkh, eventually moving westward and entering Iran. That would be the most reasonable explanation as to why Avestan texts have Austro-Asiatic words and refer to India. Furthermore, the devAsurayuddham of the purANa-s may actually be a reference to the dAsharAj~nam.

Wednesday, March 18, 2015

Blogger جسکرن دھالیوال said...

I've commented before on your page about this, but in regard to your insistence that shAkya tribe is the same as was skull-blood drinking shAka, Michael Witzel is a well-known Hindu dveShI (see Vijayavani and the California textbook controversy transcripts for more information regarding that). Therefore, Witzel takes pleasure in relating Buddha to savage Scythians (who made their living off looting from Slavs, Indians, Persians, and Greeks). Buddha was not Scythian at all. His mother mahAmAyA was a brAhmaNa, hence he has "gautama" as his maternal "gotram"(just as karNa was called as rAdheya). His shAkya father shuddhodana was actually a thAru AdivAsI. This is well established by Dor Bahadur Bista. The Tharu also had a tradition of marrying sisters. The Zoroastrian incest tradition, on the other had, was restricted only to the upper classes and rather exaggerated by the Umayyads (as it is by modern Muslims, like those at the Sons of Sunnah site). Just because some aspects of Buddhism and Zoroastrianism may be similar doesn't imply that Buddha was Scythian. If that's the case, then one could argue that the Beatitudes resembling the Thirukkural makes Jesus a Tamizh Hindu rather than a Jew. BTW, how exactly would you define "Iranian"? My mother is Tajik, my father is Punjabi and I was born in Pakistan. I can speak and write in Dari/Farsi, but I can also speak and write Urdu/Hindi, Punjabi, and Sanskrit. Furthermore, I can understand Kannada and Telugu (perhaps not at a proficient level, but enough to get by) and read Gujarati script (because it's very similar to Devanagari). I would classify myself as culturally more Indian than Iranian any day. Similarly, how can you call the shAkya tribe as Scythian when they spoke ardhamAgadhI, and may not have anything to do with Scythians?

Wednesday, March 18, 2015

Blogger جسکرن دھالیوال said...

"Māra is an unrelated figure apparently emerging from non-Vedic tradition, along with Yakṣas and [[a goddess of good fortune known as Sirī (Skt. Śrī).]]"

LOL, the shrIsUktam addressed to shrI/lakShmI is part of the R^igveda parishiShTha, so isn't it rather obscurantist for you to tell people she is non-Vedic, especially without any pramANam stating otherwise? If Vedic does not mean pertaining to the Veda-s, then what does it meant to you? Regardless, why should I trust YOU (a Chemistry major) or Hindu-hater Michael Witzel over vedAntAchArya-s who spent their entire lives studying the shAstra-s, such as vedAntadeshikaH and vAdirAjaru (vAdirAjatIrtaH) and also claim that shrI is at the heart of the veda-s? Gosh, Western Indologists and philologists are full of themselves.

Wednesday, March 18, 2015

Blogger Jayarava Attwood said...

جسکرن دھالیوال

I think you misunderstand and misrepresent Michael Witzel. He certainly seems to hate ignorance and stupidity, but is not a racist or a hater of Hindus. I think if you're going to malign people in that way you'd better not read my blog or comment. I don't usually allow abusive comments, so be warned.

The evidence on Śākyas has been set out in my published article on the matter. It is sparse but I don't see a better explanation and certainly you don't have one.

Sunday, March 22, 2015

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