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Blogger dougsmith said...

Hello Jayarava,

I have as well done some work assessing certain of the truth-claims of Nikāya and traditional Buddhism over at the SBA. For example, A Secular Evaluation of Rebirth, Ajahn Brahmali on Secular Buddhism, among others.

As you note, there is very little critique of Buddhism within Western philosophy, and largely this is due to sheer ignorance and disinterest. The few Western philosophers who study Buddhism tend either to be interested in Nāgārjunian material, or to be (e.g.) Christians interested in apologetics.

The problem re. Western philosophers is getting them interested enough to actually engage the subject. I fear that cannot be done by pointing out how clearly wrong it is in places. There is, after all, a raft of equally bad philosophy in the West, and a limited amount of time. On the other side, it takes considerable time and effort to get up to speed on the complexities of Buddhist thought.

My own approach has tended to move in a more constructive direction with Buddhism, which is not to say I disagree with any of my earlier critiques. It is simply to say that I find a constructive approach more to my liking at this time.

My best to you.

Friday, May 22, 2015

Blogger Jayarava Attwood said...

Hi Doug

My complaint is not that Western philosophers do not discuss Buddhist as you suggest. With perhaps one or two exceptions, I have little or no interest in what Western philosophers make of Buddhism, or indeed of any other subject. They bore me.

However I have a small amount of interest in what some philosophers who do discuss Buddhism say, albeit that most of it seems irrelevant to lived Buddhism. Griffiths is actually a Catholic theologian, though one of the better writers about Buddhism.

My main motivation for writing about this subject is to argue with other Buddhists, particularly my colleagues in the Triratna Buddhist Order. And specifically in this case to outline one good argument and note the few resources I've found on the subject.

As one of my friends said, it's important to have this discussion because so many of us think this way, and we need to be able to articulate our position more clearly.

Best Wishes
Jayarava

Friday, May 22, 2015

OpenID meaningness said...

FWIW, I think "quietly drop the subject of karma" is overwhelmingly the approach of American Buddhists. Some do seem to try to believe, and maybe some partially succeed, but most understand that it's embarrassingly implausible and incoherent. And therefore it is best spoken of politely but as little as possible. An unspoken agreement to collude on not expressing contradiction.

Friday, May 22, 2015

Blogger Jayarava Attwood said...

Hi David,

A while since I tempted you to comment :-)

I guess I hope that in the long run we can find a better way. Sangharakshita once said that "better honest collision than dishonest collusion". I think many of us had cause to regret that, since it led to a fair amount of dishonest collision. However, I do hope that I can encourage Buddhists to engage more positively with thinking about Buddhism. Establishing the facts is only the first step. Without a deeper dialogue in which we engage with people's values, we won't make any progress - as has happened with the communication of evolution. But establishing the facts is important.

Friday, May 22, 2015

Blogger Simon said...

Hi Jaya, thanks for another clear exposition. I was wondering if you have discussed anywhere, or are aware of any discussions of, karma in terms of consequential psycho/socio/relational effects on the person within their lifetime of their actions from "bad intentions"?

Warm Regards,
Simon

Saturday, May 23, 2015

Blogger Jayarava Attwood said...

Hi Simon,

I do prefer not to see my name abbreviated. To write it out is to participate in the meaning of it. It is a little celebration of all your victories in life, all the moments of clarity and understanding and one's desire and ability to share those with others. And a reminder that the final victory will be over suffering. The name was given to me to wear by my preceptor, but it represents something larger than either of us. To shorten the name is to cheapen it. But then, I'm not someone who has ever enjoyed being addressed by nicknames. I resisted the shortening of my birth name as well. Please do call me Jayarava. I don't use titles or affectations of office, but I would like people to get my name right.

The focus of early Buddhist texts is on how your actions in this life determine the parameters of the next life. That is to say, it's not a psychological theory in the sense that we understand psychology today. The content of your mind is not determined by karma, though the kind of mind you have (animal, human, deva etc) is. The possibility of habits of mind that transfer from life to life is one that I have yet to fully understand. My sense is that this amounts to eternalism.

We do get psychological readings of the worlds (loka), in for example Chogyam Trungpa and Francesca Freemantle's translation of the Tibetan Book of the Dead. However at least in the Theravāda Abhidhamma, the world you live in is fixed at the moment of death/rebirth (between which there is no interval). So the Theravāda understanding of the worlds denies the possibility that they are psychological states.

It seems to me that even when karma is used to explain something happening in this life, it is usually (always?) attributed to some action or event from a past life.

However, in my little book on the Kālāma Sutta I argue that the main instruction is ethical not metaphysical - it's all about how you treat other people and based on your mindful experience of interacting. In this sense the viññu or wise person, is simply someone who has learned to get along with people (probably an older person who has experienced people in many different circumstances). I suppose it's possible to interpret this as a kind of psychology: how you act towards other people conditions how you experience other people and how they treat you. But clearly it cannot determine this, as the other people have minds and dispositions as well. One could argue that this is karma in action.

In the Abhidharma accounts of karma there is the possibility of karma ripening in this life, the technical term is diṭṭhadhamma-vedanīyakamma. Arguably this is what is happening to Aṅgulimala when the Buddha counsels him that he must bare with the humiliation and pain inflicted on him by the town's people because it is unripened karma ripening - this is after he is an arahant. Interestingly this episode is missing the the Chinese Āgama version of the story.

I can't think of anything I've written specifically on the subject. I'll keep it mind as an area to address and see what comes out of my reading.

Regards
Jayarava

Saturday, May 23, 2015

Blogger Simon said...

Hi Jayarava,
My apologies for abbreviating your name; I won't do it again.

Thank you for your response.

I have recently read, among others, Sue Hamilton's "I of the Beholder" and came away with the strong implication that she read early texts as focussing on an explication of subjective experience and its difficulties and traps rather than on an ontological explication of how the world is. I took that as deprecating their specifying a trans-lifetime karmic accounting system (though she carefully did not argue against such).

That, with the recent spate of post-metaphysical interpretations of Buddhism led me to the question.

Regards,
Simon

Monday, May 25, 2015

Blogger Jayarava Attwood said...

Hi Simon

Sue Hamilton's book is foundational to my current understanding of early Buddhism, but it also gives as a way of understanding other forms of Buddhism, particularly Prajñāpāramitā.

But I read it slightly differently to you. My understanding is that experience is not subjective or objective, but arises when the two spheres overlap. In the Buddhist model, in order for their to be experience (roughly = vedanā) then sense object (ārammana) and sense faculty (indriya) must come together in the presence of sense cognition (viññāna). Thus experience per se is neither subjective or objective, but dependent on both. The sense object may be internal or external, but this doesn't amount to subjective or objective. Experience, *all* experience, is conditioned.

So the term subjective experience is an oxymoron in this context. Indeed it is deeply rooted in Western models of the mind and Buddhist models of the mind were quite different! The only time I can think that "subjectivity" as a label might apply is when we are consciously aware of being aware, which is not very often. But basically I try to avoid using the terms in the Western psychological sense because they don't apply to Buddhist models.

Admittedly I have not found many takers for this view, but to me that is how it seems.

Not only does Hamilton not argue against karma in her book, it's quite obvious from the book that she broadly accepts the early Buddhist account of karma. Karma is a given for Buddhism. She and I have very different projects. She was writing only about what the texts say; I'm interested in how that message plays out in practical terms today under very different conditions from Iron Age India.

Post-metaphysical? I've never read *any* account of Buddhism, including my own, that did not rely on metaphysics (at least in the Kantian sense). Post-metaphysical is an oxymoron. I'm certainly interested in highlighting the problems with traditional Buddhist ontologies and with any kind of supernatural epistemology. But my account is still rooted in metaphysics - ideas about space, time, and causation are pivotal. If we reject the supernatural (which is what I suspect you mean), either as a source of knowledge or as an active force, then that is an explicitly metaphysical position.

Monday, May 25, 2015

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