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Anonymous Anonymous said...

> In the same passage on p.88-89
> Vishvapani correctly parses another
> past participle, and grasps the
> metaphor when he says "...Gautama...
> entered a stage of 'cessation'
> (nirodha)" (p.88). Same metaphor, same > grammatical form.

Sorry to quibble with your quibble; but nirodha is not a past participle. Rather it is a noun formed with the affix ghañ. Not the same (kind of) grammatical form as nirvāṇa at all. H.I.

Saturday, May 28, 2011

Blogger Jayarava said...

@H.I. Quibbling of that sort is what the blog is all about, so I welcome it. You are quite right that it is not a pp., which would be niruddha. I have removed the offending sentence. Thanks.

I haven't seen that form described as -ghañ before. This is from Pāṇini?

I would understand it this way: the root is √rudh- and as a first class verb forms a stem rodh-; and with ni- = nirodh-. So 'nirodha' would be a primary derivation with the suffix -a, creating the substantive/adjective. Alternatively we could see the word as a primary derivative from the root nirudh- with guṇa of the root vowel = nirodha. (c.f. MacDonell Sanskrit Grammar for Students, p.160)

Saturday, May 28, 2011

Anonymous Anonymous said...

> I haven't seen that form described as
> -ghañ before. This is from Pāṇini?

Yes, ghañ is the technical term of vyākaraṇa for this affix.

> Alternatively we could see the word
> as a primary derivative from the root
> nirudh- with guṇa of the root vowel =
> nirodha.

There is no root nirudh-.

> (c.f. MacDonell Sanskrit Grammar for > Students, p.160)

This reference is apposite; or in Whitney see p. 423, paragraph 1148.

H.I.

Saturday, May 28, 2011

Blogger elisa freschi said...

Yes, GHaÑ is from Pāṇini, 3.3.16-42 and elsewhere in 3.3. It is a primary suffix which adds -a- to the root and causes vṛddhi of the preceding vowel. I can't remember why, but 'o' is considered vṛddhi in such cases (perhaps a more learned reader might explain why).

What do you think you don't understand about "to focus on direct, unmediated perception"? I struggle with the idea of focusing on something unmediated. I would say that the very act of focusing contradicts immediacy. But I would not exclude a priori the possibility of a first moment of perception which is unmediated. Something like the first moment in which you enter a dark room coming from the outside and only see vague shapes, which you will later be able to recognize as "chairs", "table", etc. (the example is Kumārila's).

Saturday, May 28, 2011

Blogger Jayarava said...

Hi Anonymous

I think you know what I mean with ni√rudh - it is a root with a prefix. That's a nit pick too far I think.

Saturday, May 28, 2011

Blogger Jayarava said...

Hi Elisa

Thanks for the clarification on Pāṇini. Just a thought... 'o' would by vṛddhi in Pāli, which lacks 'au'.

Re perception:

In Buddhist models perception is a result of contact between sense faculty (āyatana - so including, but not limited to, e.g. the eye) and sense object (about which Buddhist texts have almost nothing to say!).

When there is contact between the two in the presence of vijñāna (which in fact rests on those two) then we get vedanā - if any one of the three is missing there is no vedanā. Now what vijñāna means here is open to speculation, I don't really know to be honest, but at least we can say it is the condition on which vedanā rests, and it is only with vedanā (as the very word implies) that we become aware of anything.

Lots of Buddhists believe that bodhi involves some other kind of experience which bypasses all of this - that one directly perceives Reality (capital R) and this is liberating through some inexplicable process. (Though this is not what the Pāli texts describe at all!) Because bodhi is thought to be a mystical experience it doesn't follow the pattern of other experiences. Bodhi is an "unmediated experience of Reality" - and many people, but not me, understand this to be the Buddha's message to Bahiya and Māluṅkyaputta. The influence of Idealism and Romanticism is quite obvious. I'm fairly sure that this is what Vishvapani was referring to - it is common enough in our Order.

Cases of vague perceptions when entering a dark room, or even erroneous perceptions don't really make any difference to the basic model. The Buddhist focus is on why we suffer, and this is all down to wrongly processing vedanā - perceiving the painful and pleasant and vice versa. The ideal is not to directly experience Reality, but to see the reality of the perceptual situation, to stop being drunk on pleasant sensations, and pay attention to how perceptions arise and pass away - how this evanescence of perception means than no experience is lasting or fulfilling, even when we like it. Much harder in practice than in theory.

Saturday, May 28, 2011

Blogger elisa freschi said...

Does it mean that vijñāna is what is called "manas" in non-Buddhist schools? Is it the internal sense, whose presence is needed in order for one to be aware of the external perception? Is it in this sense that you state that perception is always mediated?

I agree that the "mystical" view of bodhi is a super-imposition, thanks for pointing it out.

Monday, May 30, 2011

Anonymous acutia said...

Thanks for the review. I have been listening to Vishvapani's series of talks introducing the book and mostly enjoyed them, though as an outsider to the FWBO/Triratna milieu I found his balance of (as you put it) "romance and reason" engaging and reasonable while clearly targeted at 'Buddhists' of a certain flavour. As a fan of much of Stephen Batchelor's work I could occasionally hear my own internal Batchelor avatar piping up when Vishvapani makes claims that Batchelor would qualify and historicize in line with his more demythologised and secular flavour of the Buddhadharma. I think he would concur with your misgivings about languaging such as "to focus on direct, unmediated perception" which seems to hold out the option of a direct encounter with REALITY akin to what I think Hegel would dismiss as the illusory knowledge of "sense certainty".
Anyway, thanks for the review and your linguistic and geographic quibbles. It does seem about time serious readers of Buddhist material acknowledged Buddhism's cultural origins are not in New Age California or western psychology and that if we want to engage more directly with the discussions of the various ancestors it will require some stretching of our historical and linguistic boundaries and capacities.

Saturday, June 04, 2011

Blogger Jayarava said...

Hello Acutia

Thanks for taking the time to comment. I think one must give Vishvapani his due. In fact he makes a good attempt to wrestle with the recent historical material especially Gombrich and Bronkhorst. I only know three people who've read Bronkhorst's book Greater Magadha and he's one of them. Are you another?

It sounds as if, in fact, that you have not read Vishvapani's book, and I think you are overstepping the mark to make such comments without that essential experience. It makes your comments a bit close to an ad hominem attack on Vishvapani himself, rather than a reflection on the book.

I was nit picking for my readership, not his; and I know for a fact that there is little cross over as, for example, few of my Order colleagues read this blog (2 that I know of). His audience will find the book fascinating as he does in fact bring in the recent history and challenge previously held notions. Perhaps he does not strike the balance that I might have, but I don't have a publishing contract and he does. This is all above in the the review.

Vishvapani, a highly educated and articulate Londoner, is hardly suggesting that the cultural origins of Buddhism are in California (no British person would suggest that!), nor in psychology -- which you would know if you read the book! In fact Vishvapani firmly locates the story in Iron Age India.

The books is serious attempt at a biography, written for ordinary Buddhists. On many levels it works. The person it doesn't work for is me. But I have intermediate level Pāli and beginner's Sanskrit, I regularly translate Pāli texts; plus I've read all those same academic historical sources (and written about some of them on this blog). I'm in a position to nitpick - though as the comments above show I was also initially confused about a point of grammar! Those are my criticisms, not someone else's. I'm not really interested in hypothetical comparisons with what you imagine Stephen Batchelor might say. I think that's a strange way to put forward your own opinion.

While I appreciate you feel some solidarity with what I've written, it seems to me that not having read the book you are at a disadvantage. Also you seem only to identify with the criticism, not the compliments - and I took time to include many in order to balance things out.

Ignore me, ignore Batchelor, and make up your own mind!

Saturday, June 04, 2011

Blogger Jayarava said...

Hi Elisa,

Missed your last comment. The sorting out of what is meant by citta, manas and vijñāna in Buddhism is difficult. Bhikkhu Bodhi translates citta and manas as mind, until they both occur in the same sentence! All three are at times (early?) used interchangebly, but in other places (later?) become more distinct.

To answer your question, no, manas is the internal mental sense. Sometimes it is vijñāna that provides the link between this life and the next, but I have to confess I'm currently confused about what is meant by vijñāna. It must be a project to sort it out soon, but I'm busy on other things.

I wouldn't say that perception is always mediated. I think I say that perception is mediation (between what I sense and what I know). Perception is the result of a number of processes coming together to create a mental event called vedanā. Which to go back on what I said must be 'perceived' as an object by the manas.

This feels like a poor explanation and it's clear that a lot more thought is required before I really understand it! Some Buddhist I am - I don't even understand the basic model! But at least I know I don't understand it, which is progress.

Saturday, June 04, 2011

Blogger elisa freschi said...

Dear Jayarava,

thanks for the reply and please keep me informed about your progresses in unpacking the pshychological functions in the Pāli Canon.

As for your last point, knowing that one does not know is not just the minor evil. It is a good thing in itself, since it will prompt you to inquire further. Nor can the investigation ever come to a rest, until you are awakened…

Saturday, June 04, 2011

Anonymous acutia said...

Hi Jayarava,
Thanks for your detailed but slightly surprising riposte to my comments. From a quick read, all of your criticisms are fair, but only if you see me as specifically discussing Vishvapani's book. This wasn't my intention. That said I don't know if you'd buy my view that the few comments I made are valid as a response to 5/6 hours of listening to his recent talks introducing aspects of the book.

As to Vishvapani's "Gautama Buddha: The Life and Teachings of the Awakened One", I do hope to read the book when it is available as a paperback and expect to find much of value in it.

Saturday, June 04, 2011

Blogger Jayarava said...

@Acutia. I had no idea that Vishvapani had recorded 5-6 hours of talks on his book. I have no idea what was in those talks, or who the audience were. So I have no opinion on them.

I do know Vishvapani though, and like him, and in many ways admire him. So I did not like to see my very particular criticisms of aspects of his book being made into broader points about what he was saying.

I do assume that when people comment on my blog that they are talking about the post. Where they clearly aren't I either don't publish, or I publish and remonstrate. I'm not the kind of Buddhist that just goes along with everything; I wish people well but reserve the right to argue and disagree. Online, I'm a GOB: Grumpy Old Buddhist!

Anyway no hard feelings I don't know you from Adam and was just responding to what you wrote from the hip.

Best Wishes
Jayarava

Saturday, June 04, 2011

Anonymous acutia said...

Vishvapani's series of talks on the book can be streamed/downloaded from http://www.freebuddhistaudio.com/series/details?num=X44

Saturday, June 04, 2011

Anonymous andrew said...

as a practitioner with some experience with the academic field of Buddhist Studies (an in-process master's degree), I, too, cringed at some of the points you raised here.

The larger point your review brings up for me, however, is how rarely scholars try to write for a popular Buddhist audience. These kinds of books are thus left to technically unqualified writers like Vishvapani and Stephen Batchelor, and the results are therefore never going to be up to academic snuff (especially when the books are being published by non-academic houses whose proofreaders and managing editors could never be expected to deliver a clean-enough final product for your standards).

This situation is partly the result of contemporary practitioners eschewing the necessary educational resources (or simply not having the necessary time, money, and access), but it is also due to the prevalent disdain in academia for contemporary practitioners. If scholars want to see popular, accessible books that meet their standards, they should try to write some themselves more often. The published books that qualify for such a category are all too often written with the kinds of assumptions and judgments that a previous commenter displayed (or they are so narrowly focused that only Buddhists in a particular tradition and of a particular intellectual bent will pick them up).

I wholeheartedly believe that academic Buddhist Studies has much to offer to practitioners, but it won't happen without those in the field making attempts to bridge the gap with some humility, understanding, and respect.

Tuesday, June 14, 2011

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