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Blogger Anandajoti said...

Hi Jayarava, although the article is really about strategies, you may be interested in this from Ven Dhammika's up-coming publication Flora and Fauna of the Pali Canon:

Sithilahanu. Asian Openbill Stork, Anastomus oscitians. This small stork is white or grayish with black wings and orange legs. The mandibles of the reddish-black bill are slightly arched, creating a gap between them and thus the Pali name meaning 'loose mouth'. The openbill stork is commonly found throughout India. Its feathers were used to make flights for arrows (M.I,429).

Thursday, August 01, 2013

Blogger Jayarava Attwood said...

Hi Anandajyoti,

Oh dear. I'm afraid I'm a spanner in the works for the stork people. Of course sithilahanu *might* be a stork, but I can't find any source for this earlier than Vīra's (prepublication) citation of Dave. And it seems clear that Dave made up the connection.

I'm preparing all these notes for publication - presuming some would publish such an article. A Chinese speaking friend is reviewing the article now (since my Chinese is minimal) and I hope to submit it before the end of the year. If I get into print it might spell the end for the stork.

One little note is that hanu might not mean 'jaw'. Sanskrit has another word 'hanu' deriving from the root han 'to strike, kill'.

On the other hand as Dave says: "I need hardly add that शिथिलहनु [śithilahanu] is a most fitting name and a correct rendering of the English name Open-bill for the bird" (p.396).

BTW I find your online resources very useful - the Dhammapada parallels and work on Metre especially. Thanks.

Thursday, August 01, 2013

Blogger Anandajoti said...

Thanks for your reply and kind comment. As you will have noticed it all hangs on the poor stork's open-bill, which is probably not the most secure ID in town. If you come up with anything conclusive please do leave another comment.

Thursday, August 01, 2013

Blogger elisa freschi said...

Thanks, Jayarava, this is an interesting point. Apart from the hidden shades of meanings one might be overseeing, accurate translations might be useful even in cases where they are not needed (i.e., where the author himself was not an expert), in order to avoid anachronisms (just like watches in movies like "Spartacus").

Monday, August 05, 2013

Blogger Charles Patton said...

re: 翅羅鴦掘梨 and all other Chinese transliterations, the thing most Indic translators consulting Chinese alternates seem to be confused about is the language the Chinese transliterations represent. It almost never is Sanskrit - except for late translations beyond the T'ang dynasty. Anything from 0 CE to 500-600CE or so is usually a transliteration of Gandhari. Many of the confusions of meanings that we see in Chinese translations that seem strange when we assume they were working with Sanskrit become understandable when we realize they were working with Gandhari scripts. The pronunciations are quite different - similar to Pali in some respects, but a distinct dialect.

Thursday, August 29, 2013

Blogger Jayarava Attwood said...

Hi Charles

From the article which this blog post spawned: "箭喻經 Jiàn yù jīng (MĀ 221) was translated into Chinese by a Sarvāstivāda Tripiṭaka master called Gautama Saṅghadeva from Kashmir in the Eastern Jin dynasty ca. Dec 397 – Jan 398 CE. The consensus, based on transliteration of personal names and translation mistakes, is that that original text was in a Prakrit (Minh Chau 1964, Bapat 1969, Enomoto 1986, Anālayo 2011a); however, Oscar von Hinüber (1982, 1983) goes further and argues that the text was in the Gāndhārī language written in Kharoṣṭhī script."

If you have a suggestion for a Prakrit word that fits 翅羅鴦掘梨 then I'd be happy to see it - and will credit you when I submit the article.

Best Wishes
Jayarava

Thursday, August 29, 2013

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