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Blogger Kiran Paranjape said...

Congratulations on yet another informative post.
The Tibetan mantra looks wonderful.

Saturday, October 31, 2009

Blogger Jayarava said...

Thanks Kiran. You mean the picture? That's Siddhaṃ script - the precursor of Devanāgarī

Saturday, October 31, 2009

Blogger PDSz said...

just being picky: sarvasiddhiṃ should be compounded in the first transcription. vajrībhava should also be treated as a cpd., a so-called cvi-formation in the grammarians' lingo, meaning `become vajra'; since vajra is frequently glossed as `abhedya' = `indivisible'; perhaps it means become non-dual or smth similar? but then again, these things can be interpreted in so many ways.

kind regards

pdsz `thor bu'

Monday, November 02, 2009

Blogger Jayarava said...

@PDSz picky is definitely good!

I was working on two versions at once and did not correct the sarvasiddhiṃ in this one. Done now.

I was reading vajrī as a nominative form of vajrin, and therefore not compoundable. I can't see the form you're referring to in my Sanskrit references - could you point me to a source?

Tuesday, November 03, 2009

Blogger Jayarava said...

Actually I found it already. Wikipedia and Macdonnell's Grammar working together. Adapting my translation accordingly. Thanks!

Tuesday, November 03, 2009

Anonymous Anonymous said...

Couldn't "agreement-being" be replaced by "partner"? What is an agreement-being but a partner, or perhaps some other less ungainly term?

Sunday, January 08, 2012

Blogger thrasykles said...

first, thank you for a very accurate analysis of this important mantra, Jayarava. It's a rare pleasure to find comments on mantras on the internet written with so much care for the grammatical structure of the Sanscrit language.
Still, I have a few minor suggestions to improve the interpretation:
– I agree that prayaccha has to be translated as 'grant', but the form is not from the stem iccha- from iṣ- 'to wish, to desire' but from the present stem pra-yaccha- from the root yam- 'to hold'. it is built exactly like gaccha- from gam- 'to go', and with the preverb pra it means literally 'to hold in front' and therefore 'to offer, to grant, to give'.
– Both su-toṣya- and su-poṣya- have gerundives as second members. So a translation with a passive sense might be preferable: 'be easy to please, be easy to nourish'. But these are not the only possibilities, and I wouldn't try to insist on these interpretations.
– With vajrī(-)bhava, it seems to me that both your initial interpretation as an uncompounded nom. sg. of a stem vajrin- 'vajric', and the now adopted as a verbal compound with a cvi-formation as first member are equally possible; both will mean something like 'assume the qualities of vajra' in the end.

Sunday, January 26, 2014

Blogger Jayarava Attwood said...

Hi Thanks for these comments. I've actually studied Sanskrit in the meantime and I agree. Will update as appropriate.

Sunday, January 26, 2014

Blogger Jayarava Attwood said...

Hiya on second thoughts.

I agree on prayaccha.

toṣya and poṣya are not gerundives but taddhitas √tuṣ + -ya (with guṇa) > toṣya. I.e. the -ya suffix is a nominal suffix and not a gerundive. Thus they respectively mean "contentment" and "nourishment". The two sentences are in the active voice with a verb in the second person imperative (bhava "you must be"). The pronoun 'me' has to be a dative or genitive. Your construction with an infinitive in English doesn't fit.

Thus literally:

sutoṣyo me bhava "be my complete contentment"
supoṣyo me bhava "be my complete nourishment"

vajrībhava is undoubtedly a cvi compound. It it was vajrin+bhava the i would be short, i.e. vajribhava.

Always good to think about these things though.

Best Wishes
Jayarava

Sunday, January 26, 2014

Blogger thrasykles said...

Hiya again..
I'm happy you agree on prayaccha; this is the only change I suggested that was really a correction.
the other two are mere possibilities, but your dismissal of their possibility seems to result from a misunderstanding, so I try to explain them again:
I agree that sutoṣyaḥ, supoṣyaḥ are certainly nominatives to stems in -ya-, and not gerunds (absolutives). but one of the specialized function of -ya- is to form gerundives (participia necessitatis) from verbal roots. these are very often compounded with su- to mean "easily X-able". so it is either "easily tuṣ-able", "easily puṣ-able" or (as you interpret it) "having good toṣya-", "having good poṣya-".
I also agree that a compound with vajrin would have had a short i, but there is also the possibility of reading uncompounded vajrī bhava with a nominative, as some texts seem to have it.
kind regards

Wednesday, February 05, 2014

Blogger Jayarava Attwood said...

Hi. Thanks for the clarification. I get confused with the term gerundive since it is not used in the texts I learned Pāḷi or Sanskrit from. I know it as a future passive participle or as a kṛtya.

I see what you mean though. √tuṣ + -ya (kṛtya) > toṣya 'nourishable' > su-toṣya 'easily nourishable'. MW seems to cover this sense under √puṣ but not √tuṣ.

I'm still left with the question of whether reading "sutoṣyo me bhava" in the way you suggest makes sense. In what way do we require Vajrasattva to be easily nourishable? How does that help us? Surely it is he that nourishes us? This makes more sense with √tuṣ.

Of course it is possible to read "vajrī bhava" and take vajrī as a masculine nominative singular from vajrin (though is this really masculine and not neuter?). Who is doing so however? If the source is Tibetan we must distrust it almost completely - all the Tibetan sources of the mantra that I have seen, except for the translation of Sarvatathāgatat-tattvasaṃgraha itself have got most of the mantra wrong. Why would we ask Vajra-sattva to become one who possesses a vajra (vajrin) when he is the Vajra-being inevitably depicted as holding a vajra? This doesn't make sense to me. But perhaps the same argument applies to vajrībhava?

Anyway, it's nice to have someone to discuss points of Sanskrit grammar with :-)

Wednesday, February 05, 2014

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