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Blogger Alex Kelly said...

I have read the article which I found interesting. The conclusion that faith in another person (the Buddha or someone like him) is particularly interesting especially as this points to what is beyond reasoning to verify. The truth of the Buddha's awakening is essentially pragmatic: one has engage in the course of practice to verify the truth of the Buddha's awakening for oneself. This is something which is beyond reasoning and logic to establish as true. This is in line with definitions of Right View as a prerequisite for the path of practice.

Saturday, July 16, 2011

Blogger Jayarava said...

Hi Alex

I think if one does not verify with reason then one is foolish. And if one were to only verify with reason then one is also foolish.

I personally avoid the idea of the "truth of the Buddha's awakening" because it is still making it a metaphysical quantity. Why do that?

The experience the Buddha had is like all experiences - never fully comprehended by words. But this is true of all experiences! However the effect that this had on him, the way it made him act and speak was distinctive enough to cause people to have faith in him - that is to trust that he was living out what he taught, and living proof of his own methods. Reason certainly comes into this evaluation. And that lack of reasonable caution in this regard has plagued Western Buddhism.

In the Pāli Canon one never practices in order to verify the truth of the Buddha's words. At least not as far as I can see. One practices in order to have the same experience that the Buddha had. No one, on having that experience, says: "Oh, so you were telling the truth", or "now I know what the Truth is". They say, most often: "The brahma-life is lived, I have done what needed to be done, this is my last birth."

Buddhist practice is quite simply not about establishing what is true, let alone what it True. This is the conceit of Western Philosophers and Westerners in general. It's not about Truth. It's about your relationship to experience. Philosophical and metaphysical absolutes, like Truth, just get in the way. If you are seeking Truth and think you find it, then you are completely lost.

I've no idea which definition of right-view you are referring to. Could you give some references, or some examples, preferably in Pāli. Thanks.

Saturday, July 16, 2011

Anonymous MWt said...

When we look at it carefully, a belief is just a combination of some thoughts and some feelings. The emotional component may be particularly intense if the belief is a strong one. Seen in this way, a belief is nothing special, and being stuck on a belief, even a good one, is not any better than being stuck on anything else.
On the other hand, we need conceptual frameworks of some kind to take action in the world. In my opinion, these are best held very very lightly (i.e. without strong emotional ties). In the end, nobody really knows what's going on.

Friday, July 22, 2011

Blogger Jayarava said...

Hi MWt. Yep.

Friday, July 22, 2011

Blogger Shezer Khandro said...

Thank you for an interesting post - I've only just discovered your blog but look forward to reading more.

As most westerners are converts to Buddhism - I've oten wondered how much our prior religious experience affects how we relate to Buddhism and in particular to the teacher/student relationship (which is fundamental to the Vajrayana Buddhism that I practice). It's great to hear some things from the Pali canon as I am less familiar with that area.

Wednesday, January 04, 2012

Blogger Jayarava said...

Hi Shezer

Thanks for stopping by. We all bring baggage along in our lives. Sigh.

Regards
Jayarava

Wednesday, January 04, 2012

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