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Blogger elisa freschi said...

Probably one of the worst enemmies of science (in Popper's sense, i.e., the method of scientific research, which must be falsifiable and is public) are its non-scientist fans. They claim that X is true because science has proved it to be true and may even end up intruding in fields which have nothing to do with science, such as ethics. I am presently reading S. Hawking's History of Time and he is much less assertive as for topics like the existence of God than many of his fans. Maybe they would all do a good service to science if they would apply its methodology and stick to the data…

Friday, October 07, 2011

Blogger Jayarava said...

Hi Elisa

Yes. Science "proves" all sorts of things these days. Though the fans are a funny bunch. The New Age for instance is a bit split on this: obviously science is evil because it denies most of their belief system; but it proves things, so scientific proof of, say, reincarnation is what convinces some people to believe!

I really enjoyed ABHOT when it came out - some one gave me a copy as a present. I did not enjoy his recent book The Grand Design half so much. But he does make it very clear that he is a strict materialist.

Cheers
Jayarava

Friday, October 07, 2011

Blogger Alex Kelly said...

Thanks that was informative...

In your notes you mention a connection between hypothesis to the Pāli thāna as place/state or something which remains, which I find interesting. I guess that the same root is present in kammatthana and satipatthana.

Kammatthana I understand as being the work at hand (where one makes a stand to make an effort in training the mind). Also satiphanna as establishing (upatthana) mindfulness (sati) keeping to a particular frame of reference (in this case one of four). What strikes me is the taking a position or stance here from which one does the work (such as mindfulness of body etc). Any 'truth' that one may gain whist sticking with that frame of reference is contingent on remaining or sticking with it.

This is a different kind of 'truth' than from that which is gleaned from the scientific method. It's a truth of the self (as in personal), which is obviously not verifiable by anyone else, and so cant be verified as true in a scientific sense. But still its based on seeing phenomena that are personally observable when one undertakes that satiphanna.

Saturday, October 08, 2011

Blogger Jayarava said...

Hi Alex,

I had to look up kammaṭṭhāna but yes, you seem to have got the term right - kamma + ṭhāna. With satipaṭṭḥāna the verbal root has a prefix. So the word is really sati + upaṭṭhāna 'attend, wait on' (eratic Pāli sandhi elides the u from upa.). One has to watch the prefixes - sometimes they have unpredictable effects on meaning. Monier-Williams take a more literal approach to defining the Sanskrit verb upa√sthā : "the act of placing one's self near to, going near, approaching;... and any object approached with respect." It's quite hard to get from the etymology to the meaning in usage.

Incidentally the initial consonant double when prefixed in Pāli because the Sanskrit root sthā has a conjunct consonant. This gets whittled down to ṭhā in Pāli, but the sth becomes ṭṭh in some circumstances - like adding a prefix. I don't know but presumably the Sanskrit is smṛṭi + upasthāna = smṛtyupasthāna.

I don't quite follow what you mean by taking a position. I don't think either Buddhism or Science is pursuing "truths" in the sense that you are suggesting.

The notion of verifiability is a red-herring. It was the criteria of knowledge proposed by the Logical Positivists. Karl Popper was in fact responding directly to the Logical Positivists, and I think he showed that nothing is verifiable, only falsifiable.

From our point of view there are only phenomena. This is not an absolute, or a statement about reality (whatever that means); it's an observation about our experiential world.

Every observation of a phenomenon is personal and private. However having had an experience we tend to communicate with other people to see whether they shared our experience. Both Buddhists and scientists place a higher value on experiences that appear to be shared, than on experiences are not shared. Indeed both Buddhists and scientists are interested in communicating about the circumstances in which they had their experience so that others can have the same experience.

The situation is confused because we seldom compare experiences, but tend to compare interpretations of experiences.

I'm not sure where "truth" fits into this process - it's not a word I use much any more.

Best Wishes
Jayarava

Saturday, October 08, 2011

Blogger Alex Kelly said...

Hi Jayarava

Thanks for the feedback.

By truth I mean 'to be true' (to the Dhamma), which is not truth as in a 'fact'. The standard formula for the recollection of the Dhamma goes something like: 'inviting verification' and 'to be realized by the wise for themselves' I understand this to mean that the teachings are pointing at truths (the Four Noble Truths in this case) which are to be personally realised and verified for oneself.

The invitation from the Buddha, if you like, is to personally verify those truths for one self by being true to the training.

Thanks

Saturday, October 08, 2011

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