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Blogger Tusar Nath Mohapatra said...

Excellent appraisal but at one place I felt inconvenient where you say Buddhism is gaining ground. The question is whether religion, like democracy, is legitimised by numbers although that is the most easily available and visible parameter for comparison or evaluation. [TNM55]

Sunday, July 27, 2014

Blogger Jayarava Attwood said...

Hi Tusar

The point was about Sharf's claim that focus on personal experience resulted in "loss of Sangha", not about legitimisation. I'm not interested in legitimisation and (I hope) not an apologist for Buddhism. I'm not asking you to evaluate or compare except with the statement that a consequence of Buddhist Modernism is "loss of Sangha". The opposite of "loss of Sangha" is "growth of Sangha".

I see steady growth of my Sangha. I see it numerically, but also in the depth of people's practice and in the increasing opportunities for going deeper. More people have deeper insight. The people that had insight have continued to develop. And so on. My Modernist Sangha is thriving. So I refute the notion that Modernist Buddhism causes a loss of Sangha.

Which is not to deny that free lance Buddhists are not a factor in Modernist Buddhism. I know there are lots of such people. But they exist in addition to organised Buddhism, not instead of it. And as I say many of the people who profess to be non-denominational habitually seek out virtual interactions with other Buddhists online.

Sunday, July 27, 2014

Blogger EricZ said...

Sharf's discourse in his 1995 essay is of course largely situated within the "Katz-Forman debate" in which experience (especially of the mystical variety) is not allowed to be taken as the source or authority for any given religious tradition's teaching. The idea is that doctrine influences experience rather than the other way round, yet many of the great names in religious history are incorrigible in their insistence on the primacy of experience (whether it be called mystical experience, vipaśyanā, prajñā or what have you). He cites Gimello's paper on "Mysticism & Meditation" [Katz 1978], but this is far from convincing (at least to me).

I really appreciated your insights into some weaknesses in Sharf's argument that I sensed more than was able to identify or articulate. And it convinced me that I really must read Sue Hamilton's book, as if I needed further convincing after your consistent high praise.

Tuesday, July 29, 2014

Blogger Jayarava Attwood said...

Hi Eric

Thanks for your comments on the broader context. I had read Sharf's earlier article as a standalone and I wasn't aware of the "Katz-Forman debate", though I suppose I'm interested in similar debates - for instance in the past I've argued that belief shapes interpretation of mystical experiences.

I found this succinct summary on dharmawheel.com: "In the right corner, we have the Constructivists, lead by Steven Katz, who claim that 'there are no unmediated experiences', and that all religious experience is a product of a particular cultural milieu. In the left corner, we have Robert K C Forman, who is a practicing meditator and able exponent of the 'perennialist' view."

Which makes my view "Constructivist" I suppose. Not a label that rings bells for me, so I'll have to give it some thought.

Forman's linkedin offers this summary of his key book: "Robert K. C. Forman... argues that the various levels of mysticism may not be shaped by culture, language, and background knowledge, but rather are a direct encounter with our very conscious core itself."

Which is very like what some Buddhists talk about (especially those that regularly spend time in samādhi). On the other hand I spoke to someone recently who has quite a depth of insight and could speak authoritatively about realisation and yet I still felt his remarks about the authority of doctrine where shaped by the doctrine he had studied (mostly Yogacāra). A couple of times he qualified statements with "on the basis of meditative experience" and I have to admit that he is an authority on meditative experience. But his conclusions about, say consciousness continuing after death, were just the popular view with more conviction.

What it looks like to me is that one studies a tradition from a young age, practices as prescribed, and finds confirmation of that tradition. But there are always discrepancies, so religion evolves. Sometimes great discrepancies result in break away groups. And those of us who convert as adults, which is almost all Western Buddhists, bring legacy views and experiences with us.

And yet there is still this range of experiences that people can and do have, and that we know can even be cultivated through religious practices of various kinds.

Tuesday, July 29, 2014

Blogger mufi said...

Which is not to deny that free lance Buddhists are not a factor in Modernist Buddhism. I know there are lots of such people. But they exist in addition to organised Buddhism, not instead of it. And as I say many of the people who profess to be non-denominational habitually seek out virtual interactions with other Buddhists online.

Heh, you really pegged me here, Jayarava.

Still, I imagine that Sharf would counter that virtual communities are no substitute for actual, face-to-face communities. If so, then I would feel obliged to agree with him, only with this proviso: Were I to discover a sangha in close proximity to my home, in which I feel comfortable (say, philosophically and economically), I would gladly join it. Lacking that ideal situation, as I currently do, I turn to virtual interactions (like this one), instead.

Free-lancing is by no means a perfect solution, but in my experience it's a better solution than no dharma practice at all.

Thursday, July 31, 2014

Blogger Jayarava Attwood said...

I'm not a believer in "virtual" community either and have written about it:
1. Virtual Community.
2. Commodification of the Self.

If you hold out for the perfect community you'll never find it. Community is all about aligning your values and ideas with others, not the other way around. That said I suppose there are limits. I couldn't do a Zen Buddhist, a Theravādin or a Tibetan Buddhist, which kind of narrows my options. But then I joined a religious community 20 years knowing that the community part was the important thing for me, and have never looked back.

Thursday, July 31, 2014

Blogger mufi said...

Jayarava: I think we basically agree, except that I acquired an interest in the dharma as a 40-something householder (e.g. husband, father, employee, etc.), who settled into a community long before I even knew the word "sangha." And, in this community, it turns out that the local Buddhist options are all devotional and Asian (e.g. Tibetan, Korean, and Japanese) in character. Not for lack of trying, the shoe just won't fit.

Luckily, the nearest cities provide more options to meet more like-minded practitioners, but these events are more like sporadic meet-ups than regular communal gatherings.

So, for daily or weekly interaction, virtual forums will have to suffice for the foreseeable future (say, until my children graduate and my spouse expresses an interest in moving somewhere else).

Thursday, July 31, 2014

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