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Blogger Swanditch said...

Just a note on koans: I've done (successfully answered) a couple myself, and know some people who have done many, and I want to clarify that the purpose of koans is not to have the student consider paradoxes. The intellectual mind is not used at all in the answering of koans - they are answered "with the body". They make perfect sense in practice. They can be explained conceptually but it loses the point so there's no reason to do so.

I admit that the external appearance of koans has lent fuel to the antirationalist strain but no one with a proper understanding of them would represent them in this way. One koan adept of my acquaintance has degrees in science and medicine, hardly a Romantic!

Sunday, March 16, 2014

Blogger Jayarava Attwood said...

Thanks for your perspective on koan practice. It doesn't really change my outlook. My experience of discussion with Zen practitioners is that they use rehearsed forms of paradoxical speech to exclude outsiders and prevent any kind of unsettling inquiry into views. Most of them sound like bullshitters of the first order and I find them quite irritating. I've also spent time reading D T Suzuki, especially his essays about the Heart Sutra. I think David McMahan was right to cast him in the role of arch Romantic (though he poses as a rationalist). Zenites seem unable to resist making everything a koan for others.

What interests me is that this dynamic seems to be absent from early Buddhism. The conceptual work is undertaken as a matter of course alongside the experiential work. Accompanying insight and liberation is the knowledge (jñāna) of having made a breakthrough. Knowledge is valued and communicated alongside practical instruction.

However, the intellectual mistakes that are routine as a result might be seen as an argument in favour of not conceptualising. It may be that thinking too much about Buddhism is a problem for most people who ought to be focussed on the nature of their experience. I definitely think we take on far too much theory far too early in the vast majority of cases. Most Buddhists I know seem overloaded with advanced knowledge they barely understand and unable to practice beyond a fairly modest level.

A degree in science is hardly a block to having a Romantic view of the world. Just as it is no bar to being a theist. And plenty of doctors are Christians!

Sunday, March 16, 2014

Blogger Jayarava Attwood said...

Oh and by the way, sorry to have caught you out yet again with a post that got published ahead of time by mistake. It will come out on Friday with quite a few changes. But your question about the Eightfold path is an interesting one.

Sunday, March 16, 2014

Blogger Adam Cope said...


Thanks for interesting commentary on the shadow aspect or underbelly of Conze's interpretation of the Heart Sutra et al as 'unknowable'. That this can be used to re-enforce a superiority complex or a sense of belonging/conforming to an inner circle. Wasn't there a christian phrase that goes 'the peace of god which passeth all understanding'?

>>>>>>>>>

Re - Practice & theory.
IMO, this is a far more pragmatic & helpful axis to look into than Romantic vs. Rational, Subjective vs. Objective. As you say, it brings one back to ones' own experience & is less likely to exclude vital elements, the reasons why one is/is not advancing on the path. It is inclusive and may allow enquiry into one's own blind spots.

" It may be that thinking too much about Buddhism is a problem for most people who ought to be focussed on the nature of their experience. I definitely think we take on far too much theory far too early in the vast majority of cases. Most Buddhists I know seem overloaded with advanced knowledge they barely understand and unable to practice beyond a fairly modest level." - Jayarava in above comment

Please may I chip in with that this is exactly my conclusion as a teacher of painting. And also that the 'advanced knowledge' these least ten years is far more chopped up & poorly digested than before, as it consumed via zapping on the internet, hopping unsystematically from one place to another. Checking that the basics are well in place & are willingly relearnt from a different angle & are understandable/applicable in real-life situations is absolutely essential practice as a teacher. Too many beginner painters can spout a lot of theory but can't paint well nor can identify problem areas. I believe that badly applied theory can obstruct the practice. The cart before the horse. We say 'painter! don't get in the way of the painting…'

Re: Conze. Wonder if there's a relation between his superiority complex & this axis of theory/practice? After all, many western scholars of Buddhism are at pains to point out that they don't self-identify as 'Buddhists' (Gombrich, Sue Hamilton & Eliza F. here in this blog). Maybe Conze over identified?

Friday, March 21, 2014

Blogger Jayarava Attwood said...

Hi Adam

Good to hear from you again. And thanks for your thoughts on teaching theory vs practice. I think we're very much of the same mind on this.

"Practice & theory. this is a far more pragmatic & helpful axis to look into than Romantic vs. Rational, Subjective vs. Objective."

Oh I agree. However I practice in a movement which is unconsciously Romantic. Until that's out in the open and we understand the limitations of Romanticism we'll be repeating the same intellectual mistakes. So one must draw out the assumptions and examine them.

I no longer really believe in a distinction between subjective and objective - experience, in the Buddhist model, happens in the intersection of the two. I find it quite a liberating position to take.

"Maybe Conze over identified?"

Certainly he did. He let his religious beliefs over-ride other considerations at times. To the detriment of his scholarship. Scholars have to be open to seeing what is there and strong beliefs can get in the way. Many people accuse Gombrich of this btw. His defence of the Buddha as an historical person and the Pali texts as a record of his thought is seen as rather doubtful, especially by American scholars.

As my recent work is showing, the idea of the Pali Canon as the work of a single mind is not that likely. It's not even the work of a single committee!

Sue Hamilton is exemplary in some ways because she looked at what was in the texts and was able to see that there was a serious conflict with the received tradition. And she was able to demonstrate the the texts were more coherent than the received tradition. Then she retired from scholarship at the top of her game. She is a major inspiration for me. Similarly Jan Nattier for her observations on the Heart Sutra. Brilliant work. Buddhists are quite blind to the Heart Sutra as a text - it's an object of veneration and people worship with their eyes closed.

I can see an argument for just teaching people basic mindfulness and then seeing if they have any questions after a couple of months. The answers may be information or new practices. And so it will go. But keeping information relevant to what is happening in their practice.

Friday, March 21, 2014

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