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Blogger DarkDream said...

I just want to make a couple of points. There is really no debate as I see it over creation vs. evolution. The scientific theory of evolution has accumulated immense evidence from fossils and genetics. Creationism lays its claims on the Bible.

The fundamental difference between the two claims, is that with the evolution the theory can be proven false the arguments from Creationism can not be.

I personally have a very negative view on the traditional idea of rebirth.

This link, http://dreamwhitehorses.blogspot.com/2008/11/heaven-hell-and-karma-part-2.html, to my blog discusses discuss the negative side of believing in rebirth.

An important fact that needs to be understood is that the Buddha never talked about rebirth in the strict literal sense. This English translation appears to come from the word punnabhava which means 'rebecoming'.

To me this is a fundamental distinction because the Buddha was concerned of process rather than being.

Friday, January 09, 2009

Blogger Jayarava said...

Hmmm. I sometimes think that evolution is also just a distraction from what is important - which is to pay attention to the process.

I've seen your blog on this - bit of a sore point eh?

Yes - punnabhava - but virtually everyone understands this as rebirth. Indeed people often asked the Buddha what the destination of a person was after they died. He says to an actor at one point that far from going to heaven, actors end up in hell. How you separate this out from more metaphorical statements I don't know. But it's clear that the Buddha engaged with the belief in rebirth in a positive way.

I see the Buddha in a similar way - as being interested in process, and even more specifically in the process of experience. But there are some texts which just don't fit this outlook, and finding a way to resolve this tension is not straightforward.

Best wishes
Jayarava

Friday, January 09, 2009

Anonymous star said...

Great post; inspired far too many thoughts and questions.

I don't believe that the Buddha set out to "inculcate a belief that there was no escape from the consequences of one’s actions". Rather, what I see is that if those he was speaking to already had a belief that there was a cosmic system that they could affect to bring themselves a better future, he began his instruction from that understanding and worked toward leading them to the insights necessary to see a bigger picture. He seems to have worked with people at whatever level of understanding they had and led them up to whatever they were capable of, so if they needed to believe in a system in which justice was always served, he would begin by talking to them as if this was the case. No doubt those were folks who either needed the carrot and stick of karma themselves, or needed the comfort of believing that those who had done them wrong would get what they deserved in the end. In those capable of a little more complex reasoning, he used different arguments, like the dice throw analogy, or the one that ends the Kalama sutta, where he gives reasons for morality on a slightly higher plane with less dogma: -"If there's rebirth, you're good to go... and if not, you've lived a good life with the respect of your peers."-

I ended up putting most of my other comments on this in my own blog post. Thanks for the inspiration.

Monday, September 06, 2010

Blogger Jayarava said...

Hi Star,

>I don't believe that the Buddha set out to "inculcate a belief that there was no escape from the consequences of one’s actions".

Well. The texts are agin you here. The Pāli texts consistently make this point, and a series of related points addressing such as 'if you can't escape your vipaka, then what can you do about it?'. This was the subject of my article in the Journal of Buddhist Ethics (Vol 15). So I know the argument is well supported textually. There are also passages where the Buddha criticises the view that there is no karma/vipaka. So I think we must say that as far as we can know this stuff, then the Buddha did indeed subscribe to view that the results of karma were inescapable, if somewhat mitigable. If you have evidence to support another conclusion then I'd be pleased to see it.

However by the time the Samaññaphala Sutta was translated into Sanskrit and Chinese this had already begun to change - there is a PhD thesis on this text (MacQueen, G. A Study of the Śrāmaṇyaphala-sūtra. Wiesbaden: Otto Harrassowitz, 1988.). I plan (one day) to do a comparison of the Pāli and Chinese suttas and then look at the idea of purification in the Sarvatathāgata tattvasaṃgraha to round it off. The development of the idea is interesting.

Best Wishes
Jayarava

Anyone interested in Star's response should go to: Just a Little Dust

Monday, September 06, 2010

Anonymous star said...

But the article I am responding to here is about karma and *rebirth*. We agree that the Buddha certainly wanted to inculcate a belief that there was no escaping the consequences of one's actions *in life* but the point of your article was, I thought, that it was critical that he taught that one could not escape *even after death*. I should have been clearer, sorry, rather than assuming that you'd know I was talking about consequences beyond death.

Thursday, September 09, 2010

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