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Blogger dougsmith said...

Thanks very much for your thorough treatment of problems with karma, Jayarava. It's very useful.

The basic problem, as you note, comes at the beginning: either there is personal continuity which grounds karma, or there is no personal continuity, and karma fails to ground what you call the Moral Universe Theory. Karma stands or falls with personal continuity. Perhaps this is why the Buddha refused to say if the doer of the deed was the one who finally received the reward or punishment. (SN 12.46).

To be fair, I wouldn't call the ālayavijñāna 'ad hoc'; it, or something very like it, simply falls out of the theory. If there are karmic seeds, their mere existence constitutes a kind of storehouse. And given the beginningless nature of reality, that storehouse could be large without bound, unless there is some principled argument (which I haven't seen) that would keep its size in check.

The problem is that there is no independent evidence for such a storehouse. It isn't available in conscious awareness, for example. Perhaps this is why you say it is 'ad hoc'.

Interestingly, I think current evidence from the brain sciences vitiates any claim to a unitary stream of consciousness. E.g., work on split brain patients and those who have had a half cortex numbed (discussed in Sam Harris's new book), as well as the famous Libet experiments on action, show that a good deal of what we call 'stream of consciousness' is post hoc confabulation. What may really be going on 'under the hood' as it were are multiple streams that compete for some form of promotion into awareness.

None of this would, of course, strictly support traditional forms of karmic causation, but they may give some room for complexifying the picture.

Friday, January 16, 2015

Blogger Jayarava Attwood said...

Thanks for your comment. I deliberately refrained from arguing on the basis of science because it had become clear that it was not necessary. Karma was not killed off, it was still born. Citing science is just dancing on the grave of karma :-)

You made me think more about the bīja metaphor. I've seen it in several contexts over the last few months and it seemed to me that no storehouse (if that is what ālayavijñāna means) is ever mentioned in relation to it.

I wondered if there even was a word in Pāli for granary. Turns out there was: dhaññāgāra 'grain-house'; dhaññapiṭaka 'grain basket', and also koṭṭhaka which is any kind of enclosed space: treasury, granary, water tank, and even the space in which an āśram is made.

The idea doesn't seem to be used in the suttas, though there is a reference in the Vinaya (Vin i.240) which is the story of Meṇḍaka. The Milindapañha also refers to a granary.

There seems to be a distinction between seeds (bīja) which one plants, and grain (dhañña) which one eats. One doesn't store seed in a granary. And I don't see a word for a seed-store. Buddhadatta lists bījakosa, but it is one of his many neologisms and not found in the Canon. Presumably seed was stored in small quantities and only temporarily. A bit more work would be required to get an idea of planting practices. Certainly the most common place for seeds is sown in the ground or field. Thus, from the Pāḷi Canon point of view the natural extension of the seed metaphor is not a granary, but a field (khetta = Skt kṣetra) which is interestingly (with respect to my comments on gandharva) also a word for 'wife'!

So I'm not convinced that ālayavijñāna does follow from the proposition of cittas being like bīja. The expected extension would be kṣetravijñāna 'the field of cognition where seeds are planted'.

Of course Vasubandhu et al are living in a much later time, several centuries hence, though agriculture is unlikely to have changed much. One still sees people ploughing fields with ox-drawn wooden ploughs in India today. I've seen this in poor Bihar, but also in relatively wealthy Maharasthra.

The other thing is the compound ālaya-vijñāna. What kind of compound is this? Not a tatpuruṣa. An example of this would be himālaya (hima-ālaya) "abode of snow". I presume it must be a karmadhāraya: the kind of cognition known as 'abode' [for bīja presumably]. Except it does not perform the action of cognising which is one of the definitions found in Pāli.

"Viññāṇaṃ viññāṇan" ti, āvuso, vuccati. Kittāvatā nu kho, āvuso, "viññāṇan ti vuccatī" ti? "Vijānāti vijānātī" ti kho, āvuso, tasmā "viññāṇan" ti vuccati. Kiñca vijānāti? Sukhantipi vijānāti, dukkhantipi vijānāti, adukkhamasukhantipi vijānāti. "Vijānāti vijānātī" ti kho, āvuso, tasmā "viññāṇanti vuccatī" ti. (MN i.292)

"Cognition, cognition," is said, friend. What is meant by saying "cognition"? It cognises (vijānāti) friend, hence it is called cognition. And what is cognised? Pleasure, pain, and neutral [sensations] are cognised. Therefore is is called cognition because it cognises.

I must admit that I'm not well read on ālayavijñāna. It's always struck me as a stupid idea, an ātman by another name, which decreases my motivation to research it. I have some more stuff to read which might flesh things out a bit, but it does still look like an ad hoc extension to me.

Friday, January 16, 2015

Blogger dougsmith said...

Yes, field or storehouse, they are finally just moderately adequate metaphors for where the seeds go until they ripen. My guess would be that none of this was developed until much later for the reason you suggest: it seemed to imply substantial personal continuity, under whatever metaphor. So perhaps they just prefered to leave well enough alone.

Just speculating of course. Perhaps there is some thoughtful Theravādin who can pitch in.

Friday, January 16, 2015

Blogger dougsmith said...

Jayarava, do you have a handle on the early Buddhist theory of memory? Memory should parallel kamma as a determinant of persistence, as per Locke. That is, memory is clearly not always active, yet persists in some sense as mental traces that are recoverable at the appropriate time, depending on causes and conditions.

Memory is perhaps a more interesting case than karma because it needn't fall afoul of issues of supernaturalism. (So long as we consider past life memories a species of confabulation). Memories really exist.

One thing we also shouldn't lose sight of is that all premodern theories of mind are defective in one or more rather significant ways. Our everyday notion of beliefs and desires causing actions is perhaps rough-and-ready but obviously leaves much to be desired, and were one to try to make detailed sense of it, it would prove intractable rather quickly. It's been awhile but my vague recollection is that Classical Greek philosophers had very rudimentary theories of memory. (Indeed, I think even today we don't understand memory very well). So I think we should read with charitable understanding of the difficulties involved in work at the dawn of human comprehension.

Saturday, January 17, 2015

Blogger Jayarava Attwood said...

@doug

I've never seen any theory of memory in Early Buddhism. Modern Theravādin writers find one in the 24 paccayas, which come from the Abhidhamma, but I think this is an extrapolation.

Do memories "really exist"? Certainly we really experience some mental objects as memories and experience does seem to imply a mind-independent reality, but to say that memories exist seems to be going too far.

Yes, pre-modern theories of Mind and physiology are virtually always of limited accuracy. Although so far as I can see the Buddhists had a good handle on the nature of experience and how to work with it. I would like to be charitable to the ancient Buddhists. After all I spend a lot of my time learning their languages and reading their stories; not to mention putting their ideas into practice. But in order to demystify Buddhism in the present, it's necessary to show just how confused the ancient Buddhists, the Tipiṭaka-kāras, were. I associate the dawn of human comprehension with emergence of anatomically modern humans, ca 150-200,000 years bp.

Saturday, January 17, 2015

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Saturday, January 17, 2015

Blogger dougsmith said...

"I associate the dawn of human comprehension with emergence of anatomically modern humans, ca 150-200,000 years bp."

Quite so. I meant to say the dawn of written human comprehension; the first available human philosophical systems.

Saturday, January 17, 2015

Blogger Swanditch said...

Why do you say that karma is at the heart of Buddhism? As far as I can tell it's not a part of any of the central doctrinal elements: four noble truths, eightfold path, dependent origination, and so forth.

Saturday, January 17, 2015

Blogger Jayarava Attwood said...

Hey Swanditch, it's been a while.

Nothing in Buddhism makes sense without karma. Without the concept of intentional actions having predictable consequences, nothing in Buddhism works. It's implicit in the four noble truths, for example, that craving is a karma whose vipāka is unhappiness. Craving is the source of dukkha, because of karma. Without this the FNTs don't really make much sense. Sammakammanta is the 4th aṅga of the aṭṭhaṅgika-magga.

Dependent arising covers a vast amount of territory, but the heart of it is - vedanā, tṛṣṇa, upādāna. Vedanā is the result of karma. Upādāna is a karma, whose result is bhava. Jati is another vipāka from karma. And so on. When Abhidharmikas realised there was a conflict between pratītyasamutpāda and karma, they modified pratītyasamutpāda to make karma work (all of them did this) - many Buddhist sects allowed dharmas to continue to act as conditions long after the karma that was *their* condition had ceased, thus violating impermanence (as Nāgārjuna points out in MMK Chp 17)

So karma is there in all of the "central doctrinal elements" you mention. How could have missed this?

Saturday, January 17, 2015

Blogger Swanditch said...

I still read all your posts - got you on RSS - but I rarely have anything to add.

My experience of Buddhism is the reverse of many people's experience: I began with contextless meditation, had some strong experiences, laer encountered teachers and more organized practice, and only some time later began to study the texts, on my own accord. The conceptual framework has always been an add-on for me, and ideas like karma and rebirth have never seemed important or useful in my life and especially practice.

Furthermore, and this is perhaps my poor understanding showing, it seems to me there's a difference between the use of the word "karma" to refer to the elaborate doctrine of causality and rebirth in various states, on the one hand, and karma meaning simply "moral action" - deeds, what one does in one's life. For example, sammakammanta in the eightfold path involves consciously deciding not to kill or steal. This is a simple idea that even non-Buddhists grasp and accept: most people think killing is wrong and should be avoided. Whereas to call upadana a "karma" seems a different kettle of fish to me. How can craving be called an action, let alone an intentional action? I can't choose to crave or not crave. (If I could the eightfold path would be a lot shorter!) "Karma" in this sense seems to border on the looser senses of the word "dharma", some sort of mysterious unit of psychological substance.

I am also not clear on why you say that vedana arises from karma in the nidanas. In the list I'm looking at it arises from phassa. Karma is not a link in any of the versions of dependent arising. Maybe I'm thick.

From reading the Pali Canon I got the strong impression that the Buddha taught simplistic "get a better rebirth by being good" karma to laypeople. The sutta where he explains rebirth on the basis of past life deeds to Queen Mallika is a classic example of this. To the bhikkhus however I don't recall him belaboring the notion. He seemed much more concerned to get them to keep their noses clean in order to prevent troubled mindstates that interfere with meditation, and then to meditate as hard as they could in order to win liberation.

I don't recall any statement in the Canon that acceptance of karma theory is an essential prerequisite to liberation. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

I will say that I hear Western Buddhists frequently use the word "karma" as a veil for their own ignorance and I appreciate your work in deconstructing the term. I avoid using it myself as it seems obfuscatory and lazy.

Saturday, January 17, 2015

Blogger Jayarava Attwood said...

I think you're lucky to have started that way. Most people are over burdened with doctrines they don't really understand and unable to put into practice. Far better to have experiences that need explaining, and then finding the explanation, even if it is the metaphysically speculative traditional explanation. For many people Buddhism is largely vicarious.

You've highlighted two aspects of karma. Not two different meanings of karma. You may recall that I'm not arguing that there is anything unique about karma. It is just morality of exactly the same kind as other religions, just with an impersonal agent instead of a personal one. They are all predicated on the Myth of the Moral Universe and the Myth of the Afterlife (the sacred cow I intend to slaughter next week).

Upādāna doesn't mean "craving" it means "clinging" or "attachment". Which is an intentional action. On the other hand I would say that craving is a vipāka caused by karma. To be free of craving one must set up the conditions for lack of craving in the future. And even one free of craving may experience intense sensual pleasure, i.e. the counterpart of what Aṅgulimālā experienced when he was pelted with missiles.

I might have over-reached myself in saying that vedanā in the nidānas is a vipāka. It certainly is elsewhere. Vedanā is one of the chief products of karma (See MN 136), punarbhāva being the other one.

If you've missed the Buddha teaching karma to bhikkhus then you need to look again. See for example AN 8.40, AN 5.57.

I don't recall any statement that acceptance of any theory is a prerequisite for liberation. That's not how the Buddha usually talks. None-the-less many theories are taught or implied along the way. Liberation (vimutti) for example is, more often than not, conceived of as freedom *from rebirth*. The freshly minted arahant often says, "I've done what needed to be done, this is my last birth, I won't be reborn ever again." Karma is what drives rebirth, it's what keeps the saṃsāra turning.

Sunday, January 18, 2015

Blogger Paul said...

I always think of karma as modifying the mind. This modification of mind means that the experience of subsequent events is different because the perceptual apparatus is different.

I don't think that moral universe theory makes a jot of sense if the universe is the scientific universe. If however one is talking about the field of experience then I think it does. The same positive and negative objective events can happen to different people, and because of their different minds they see the situation differently. They then respond differently which further influences future events and experiences.

To be honest I think there is a great tendency to make grand unified theories when something more mundane and practical is probably better.

As to spanning lives, I am pretty agnostic.

Sunday, January 18, 2015

Blogger Jayarava Attwood said...

Hi Paul,

I pretty much agree with you. However, one must clear the ground, dig the dirt, and spread manure before planting a new crop. It's been a very long time since this garden was properly tended and it's somewhat overgrown. I'm hoping my weed-whacker doesn't conk out before the job is done.

If you are still agnostic about spanning lives I hope I will lure you off the fence on Friday :-)

Sunday, January 18, 2015

Blogger Jayarava Attwood said...

I've removed comments from user @windwheel because he was sending me vile abuse. I have zero tolerance for this.

Sunday, January 18, 2015

Blogger Swanditch said...

I'm going to have to do some rereading of suttas and rethinking of my opinion of the importance of karma as a doctrine. I've clearly given it less importance than some of the texts do.

On a first read through, I note that MN 136, MN 135, and AN 8.40 do not mention liberation, let alone attempt to relate karma theory to liberation. This may be relevant to your view that karma is incompatible with dependent arising. As I recall DA is taught in relation to liberation very frequently.

AN 5.57 mentions liberation but karma there is more of a psychological motivator than a crucial element of the theory of liberation, or so it seems to me.

As regards upādāna - clinging, attachment - being an intentional action: I just don't see how that's possible, either in Buddhist teachings or in my own experience. If I could simply choose not to cling, I could choose to be an arahant. To me, DA is a picture of the unliberated mind, which by definition is a mind that is not free to choose in most circumstances. "Man is mechanical" said Gurdjieff, and I've usually read DA as a picture of the machinery. We stumble through life like blind robots, "choosing" on the basis of conditioned impulses that grow out of ignorance and lead to suffering. We have a tiny little window of possible freedom of action, and it's only through taking as many good actions as we can, and training the mind, that we have any hope of escape. Anyway that's my read of it, which is as I said above a backformation from my experience and the guidance of wiser others.

Finally, perhaps this is the best expostion of karma:

http://i.imgur.com/oSqQX5A.jpg

Sunday, March 01, 2015

Blogger Jayarava Attwood said...

Remember that "liberation" is most often liberation from *rebirth*. And rebirth is driven by... karma. So add in every sutta that proclaims "this is my last rebirth" at the time of liberation.

Pratītyasamutpāda describes how experiences arise. The 12 nidāna model certainly describes unenlightened experience. The Spiral Path model describes how the unenlightened can become liberated from rebirth. But the imassim sati idam hoti model is far more general. And so is the unnamed model which tells us that vedanā arises from sense object meeting sense faculty in the light of sense consciousness. We know that the Buddha experienced vedanā while he had a human form.

And when later Buddhists had to change one of either karma or pratītyasamutpāda, they changed pratītyasamutpāda.

Man is not mechanical. Man is organic.

And no I don't think cynicism is warranted. You surprise me.

Monday, March 02, 2015

Blogger Swanditch said...

I've failed to make myself clear - another reason I rarely comment on the internet.


The nature of one's rebirth is driven by karma, but that one is reborn at all is driven by dependent arising. The texts cited above make clear that karma is the HOW of rebirth, and the rest of the canon that DA is the WHY. If karma was the cause of rebirth, liberation would be attained by ending karma - the Jain solution, no? But the suttas assert that liberation is attained by seeing DA clearly, which causes the three fires to be extinguished and DA to unwind.

"Man is mechanical" is a metaphor intended to draw attention to an aspect of the condition we humans find ourselves in, a metaphor I have found useful with reference to specific features of my own life. It's not a philosophical or scientific claim. Sabbaṃ ādittaṃ, but our eyeballs are not literally aflame.

I did not intend any cynicism in my comment, though I can see how it can be read that way. My intent was more like B's in SN 35.28: everyday unenlightened life sucks to a large, and largely unconscious, degree, and we would do well to work towards freedom. I have found this to be true.

Thursday, March 19, 2015

Blogger Jayarava Attwood said...

Perhaps it's best to see written communication as a negotiation - even talking requires quite a bit of tooing and froing when discussing complex ideas. Writing is both more and less precise, so it takes a while to get it right.

The idea that rebirth is driven by dependent arising is an interesting one. I would agree that dependent arising is applied to rebirth in an *attempt* to explain it, but that's not what it was for and so it failed. Once it is used outside the context of experience, dependent arising throws up all kinds of metaphysical problems (such as are recorded in Kathāvatthu, Mūlamadhyamakakārikā, and Abhidharmakośabhāṣya in particular). That one is reborn is simply a given in Iron Age India. While there are a few Buddhist discourses that represent non-believers they are given short-shrift. Certainly Buddhists all believe in rebirth as a given (niyāma) or a natural phenomenon (dhammatā) by the time the texts were composed (which is our event-horizon).

Rebirth seems to predate any attempts to explain it using dependent arising (it's found in Upaniṣads and Jainism) and in fact as far as I can see the attempt failed rather miserably - it was constantly tinkered with for centuries to try to make it a better explanation for rebirth, but what we are left with is a metaphysical mess that cannot explain anything satisfactorily.

The fact is, that dependent arising was changed to make karma work, by a number of different doctrinal sects, on a number of occasions. Not the other way around. Karma is the more fundamental idea in Buddhism. However karma did also change, so it was not an absolute either. The history of these ideas is clear enough, but not to the taste of most modern Buddhists.

The trouble with bad metaphors is that they foster poor reasoning and lead to bad conclusions. We all thought "selfish gene" was a useful metaphor for a while too. But then it just turns out to be Neolibertarianism applied to biology and gets us nowhere. "Mechanical man" is a metaphor that can only lead to erroneous conclusions about men (or women). Just because it's a metaphor doesn't mean that it's not open to criticism.

The image you linked to clearly is deeply cynical, and I would say *hateful*. I was shocked by it. I took your endorsement of it as a statement of cynicism. I'm glad I was wrong, because to the extent I know you (which is admittedly not much) I do like you. But now I don't understand why you would endorse that kind of sentiment. What was the subtext in linking to it?

Saturday, March 21, 2015

Blogger Swanditch said...

All metaphors and analogies ultimately fail, and have sell by dates. "Mechanical" has been a useful one for me but is clearly not for everyone. In fact repeating it unthinkingly is itself mechanical behavior!

The image! I'd forgotten about that. I should have put a smiley face next to the link: I posted it purely in jest. It's a ludicrous and, yes, hateful idea and it struck me as a good mockery of the tendency to use the word "karma" to reinforce one's selfish tendencies, and to retroactively justify any situation. I mean, if someone really believes that past actions determine every moment of their life, then they have to believe something as stupid as the idea in that image. :D

Thursday, April 09, 2015

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