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Blogger elisa freschi said...

Hi Jayarava and thanks for the interesting post. I have only studied a related topic in the Abhidharma Kosa and its Bhasya and the following proposal may therefore be at best naive and at worse completely wrong. This being said, I had understood the succession of cittas as working in a way which preserves the whole information regarding the moral content of the previous action, but nothing else. I.e. (assuming arbitrarily a beginning, just for the sake of the argument, although the citta 1 is not really the first one as the process is beginningless):

citta 1 (moral value+)-->citta 2 (moral value influenced by that of citta 1)-->citta 3 (moral value influenced by that of citta 2, which was itself influenced by that of citta 1)-->.....citta n (moral value influenced by that of citta n-1, which was itself influenced by the preceding one)

In this way, citta n does not need to be loaded with full information and to carry it over to the next rebirth. What do you think?

Friday, September 05, 2014

Blogger elisa freschi said...

As for the last question you ask, we discussed it already, but I wonder whether one should add at least a specification. To believe in the Western mainstream conception of one's brain and to consequently cure it, and then to maintain that the heart is the abode of one's feelings is contradictory. Similarly, believing in the existence of an embodied god living, e.g., on the moon, could be proved to be plainly wrong. However, I don't think that maintaing that the Western natural scientific mainstream worldview is the best description we currently have of our ontological world contradicts or is contradicted by believing that it is morally good to go to church on Sunday. The two sets of beliefs simply do not clash because they regard different layers (which I usually call descriptive and prescriptive).

Friday, September 05, 2014

Blogger Jayarava Attwood said...

Hi Elisa

This would certainly reduce the load on each citta. I see two problems however.

1. It's not only moral values that are transmitted. We need also to account for memories in this life, and across lives.

2. Having only one stream of citta places limits. How do separate kammas which ought not to influence each other? How do separate kammas ripen at different times: some in this life, some in the next life, some in subsequent lives? How is the bhavaṅgacitta not changed by inheriting all this moral significance?

If citta n has the averaged moral value of all cittas (1 > n) then there is no "memory" of the individual kammas over time. I think there has to be (though the early texts are conflicted over the relationship of kamma to vipāka).

To me there's no need to make sense of karma. I don't think it will make sense and I don't think it made sense to the ancients either, else they would not have kept inventing new explanations for karma. I'm mostly interested in mapping how the ancients thought about it. And in the consequences for us of realising, *again*, that we cannot explain this doctrine.

Saturday, September 06, 2014

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