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Anonymous earl rectanus said...

Very nice review Jay, Although I don't agree that death is an abyss, a hole that can't be filled. It all depends, I think, on how broadly my identifications and identity stretch. To the extent that one identifies deeply with broader domains of reality that extend beyond the organic individual, "death" becomes merely the passing of a constituent element and not something fundamental in and of itself. So the greatest pain of losing a child reflects this natural tendency to see this life force as the essential element (in this case as expressed in our own DNA) which when violated is extraordinarily painful to accept. On another level, this abyss of death can also be dismissed as illusion, as only the living have a concern with it. I'm sure you are really commenting on the degree to which we as humans do need to create methods by which we address this imperative to continuation, rather than suggesting it is really so impossible to address. In being selfless, we seem to really be acting in line with our oneness with others and so deepen this awareness that we are part of that greater and continuing reality.

Sunday, May 08, 2011

Blogger Jayarava said...

Hi Earl.

That's "Jayarava", thanks - no need to shorten it in writing, there's no hurry, and the name actually means something which shortening it obscures.

I don't presume to offer answers to this problem. I have no experience of death personally - being still alive. A few close calls, and plenty of family and friends have gone beyond - I've seen a few corpses. Even killed animals. Enough for me to know that I do not understand death.

It is interesting to see where people find comfort in the face of death (I'm compiling a catalogue of afterlife beliefs). Glad you've found something that works for you, and I hope the child's death you are talking about is entirely hypothetical.

Sunday, May 08, 2011

Blogger vacha said...

Certainly a nice orticle. As you may recollect that i have written something anout Thirumoolar,the saint poet of Tamil-Nadu, who have dealt such matters vividly. He says activeness and continiuty though the natural urge of mankind will ultimatly lead to grief and distruction. "Being motionless { keeping the beathing to mimimum or nil} is the most difficult thing a man can aspire" But once we do that that is the begening of etrenity.The deathless life --they are called Siddhar in Tamil people without body but only life. There are 18 such Siddhars in this universe, we are told. pl comment
vasan

Monday, May 09, 2011

Blogger Jayarava said...

Vacha. No I don't recall reading anything by you. Thirumoolar sounds like a very disturbing individual. Tibetans speak of 84 siddha. Others of 84,000. Why would there be a limit? It's just a story someone has made up.

The demonisation of humanity is an ongoing aspect of religions - both western and eastern. I hate it.

Monday, May 09, 2011

Blogger elisa freschi said...

I agree about the disconcert death brings in our lives (how could not I?). But why do you need Metzinger's premise? No matter how and why we achieved self-awareness (and I doubt we can have a precise knowledge of something which is by definition completely alien of our actual understanding), the idea that our life has an end is almost unbearable.
In passing: I tend to see also the scientific idea of the persistance of genes as a conforting belief;-) "They" have nothing to do with "me" and to believe that they have, means upholding some sort of "religious" belief in unconscious entities like genes. Let us just face the disturbing truth of death and see (as you suggest) whether we can make some use of our short time here (for instance, by helping others).

Monday, May 09, 2011

Blogger Jayarava said...

Hi Elisa

We don't need Metzinger at all, but it was reading his book that made me think of it in this way. I'm interested in Metzinger's models and ideas - without necessarily buying into them.

I think most people look briefly at death and then very quickly find an "answer" to the problem so they never have to face it again. And all the better to be with a group of people all ignoring death in the same way. This is religion in a nutshell!

The central goal of Buddhism is often called amata or amṛta 'the deathless'. The Greeks had ambrosia 'undying'. Gods are immortal and everlasting in many religions - though one of the first sentences in my Pāli primer is devā cavanti (I'm sure you can work it out as the verb ending is the same as Sanskrit). Forever and ever amen. One could argue that even the religions which play down the individual personality do so in order to assuage the fear of death (as per what Earl wrote above).

I don't many people can really face death - I don't think I can do so with equanimity anyway. But doing something useful, helping people is always a good thing.

Tuesday, May 10, 2011

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