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Blogger Indrajala said...

Fascinating discussion. This is something I've looked at with respect to the Chinese canon. The Mūlasarvāstivāda Vinaya Bhaiṣajya Vastu, for example, has the Buddha mentioning Kaniṣka and his stupa. More curious perhaps is the Ekōttarikāgama, which mentions the act of writing. There's no evidence, archaeological or otherwise, that writing existed in Magadha in the Buddha's age.

The latter might be written off just because it is a Chinese translation of something, but it is one of the earliest datable Buddhist works available to us, having been translated in 397.

I agree with Schopen generally that we can't speak much about an 'early Buddhism' in any strict historical sense for lack of evidence. We can perhaps make certain inferences about that period and its history, especially if it can be coordinated with archaeological evidence, but it won't ever amount to a solid conclusion with presently available data.

This upsets a lot of Buddhists, which is understandable, but then these sentiments enter secular scholarship and taint the discourse.


About Kapilavastu, Faxian visited a place he called Kapilavastu in the early fifth century:

《高僧法顯傳》卷1:「從此東行減一由延到迦維羅衛城。城中都無王民甚丘荒。止有眾僧民戶數十家而已。」(CBETA, T51, no. 2085, p. 861, a22-24)

"From here going east less than a yojana away one arrives at the city of Kapilavastu. Inside the city there is no king nor any citizens. It is quite desolate. There are only the monks and some tens of households."

If it was ever a major city, it was desolate by 400 CE.

In the seventh century Xuanzang has the following to say:


《大唐西域記》卷6:「劫比羅伐窣堵國,周四千餘里。空城十數,荒蕪已甚。王城頹圮,周量不詳。其內宮城周十四五里,壘甎而成,基跡峻固。空荒久遠,人里稀 曠。無大君長,城各立主。土地良沃,稼穡時播。氣序無愆,風俗和暢。伽藍故基千有餘所,而宮城之側有一伽藍,僧徒三千餘人,習學小乘正量部教。天祠兩所, 異道雜居。」(CBETA, T51, no. 2087, p. 900, c22-29)

"The country of Kapilavastu is more than four-thousand li in circumference. There are tens of empty cities, completely abandoned and overgrown with weeds. The king's city is decrepit. The measurements for the circumference are unclear. Within there is the palace, fourteen or fifteen li in circumference built of layered bricks, the remains of the foundation tall and solid. They have long been emptied and abandoned. The villages of the people are rare and scarce. There are great lords or chiefs and the cities individually elect their headmen. The land is fertile. Sowing or harvesting they are often seeding. The order of the seasons is without lapse. Their culture is gentle and kind. There are more than a thousand old foundations for temples, though on the side of the palace there is one temple with over three thousand monks who study the Hīnayāna Saṃmitīya teachings. There are two theist shrines and the different paths reside together."


It seems the state might have been significant at some point, perhaps when the Buddha's hagiography was being written.

Friday, February 20, 2015

Blogger Dharmakara said...

Hi Jayarava.

Great article, so I posted an excerpt of it over at our forum (freesangha.org)--- if you have any updates, please feel free to drop in over there and let everyone know.

Metta,

DK

Monday, March 02, 2015

Blogger Ryan Johnson said...

Unrelated, but perhaps interesting to note in terms of Buddhist culture, I posted this article on the Dharma Overground when commentating on the argument from authority fallacy Buddhists use to claim legitimacy or correctness of their beliefs about meditation/awakening, and was met with outright hostility or a sort of passive dismissal without any rebuttal of content.

However, I attend a meditation community in person at a typical SBNR Yoga Studio of which an MBSR and IMS teacher has a donation based class, for which I told him and others and his immediate response was, "Oh wow, that a really interesting. I'll put it on our newsletter for everyone to see!" Also, others in the class found it very interesting and we're open to it.

All this to say as someone in the trenches of American Buddhism and American Spirituality to notice both the interesting trends and also to say that blog posts like these and those of David Chapman do have some influence on the culture, or, my way of saying what an interesting article!

Saturday, May 23, 2015

Blogger Jayarava Attwood said...

Hi Ryan,

Thanks for letting me know of your interest. It's always good to know that my ideas are appreciated.

Best Wishes
Jayarava

Saturday, May 23, 2015

Blogger aarushya trident said...

Very informative article. Thanks.

a) all the buddist literature which does not mention Ashoka is classified as early Buddhism.

b) Ashoka's stone edicts are used as a basic reference point.

c) Fa-Hien mentions that Kapilavastu and Pataliputra are in ruins. He does not mention Guptas. So, Fa-Hien did not visit during the time of Guptas. Fa-Hien mentions Kanishka.

I think the problem is this: Ashoka's edicts.

Ashoka's edicts which survive today seem to be that of Ashoka of Gupta Dynasty(i.e. Samudragupta). It seems to me that that it was Ashoka of Gupta dynasty who sent Theravada Buddhism to Sri Lanka.

The reason for this conclusion is:
a) The stone edicts of many other Gupta kings have also survived.
b) No stone edict of any other Mauryan king has survived.

So, even if Ashoka Maurya had made stone edicts, it didn't survive. The stone edicts extant today belong to Ashoka of Gupta dynasty.

That means many of the Buddhist texts which do not mention the Ashoka(of Gupta Dynasty) are not really 'early' They are actually medieval Buddhism(in the Indian history).

Those texts approximately belong to the period when Kanishka was ruling.

There are two possibilities:
- Either, the Buddhism is totally wrong about its own history.
- Or, the historians have made a mistake.

I think its more probable that the historians have made a mistake. And that mistake seems to be in confusing between two Ashokas. The historians have assumed the deeds of Ashoka Gupta to be the deeds of Ashoka Maurya. I think this is the impact of Ashoka Avadana. So, if all the literature is contradicting this point, then this point should be seen as a mistake. Either Ashoka Avadana is not an authentic historical document. Or it is being misinterpreted.

There is another point:
If early Buddhism has to be understood, then historians will have to find Indian texts and depend only on them. Foreign texts are useless for this purpose because they are foreign to India and therefore more likely to make mistakes and misrepresentations about early Buddhism. The more nearer in time and place, less mistakes will be there. The farther away in time and place, more mistakes are likely.

Presently, most of the texts seem to be from outside India which explains all the confusion. Fa-Hien had to travel to India because the texts in China were confusing and incoherent. If it was true during Fa-Hien's time, then it would be true today also.

Thursday, July 23, 2015

Blogger Jayarava Attwood said...

aarushya trident

This theory is what we technically call "crackpot". If you knew anything at all about the dating of Asoka you would know that he cannot be a Gupta, but was indeed a Moryan who lived in the 3rd Century BC - for the reasons I give in the essay. I recommend that you actually read the essay and follow up the references. You cannot just make facts up to fit your own zany version of history and expect people to believe that "historians have made a mistake". The trouble with historians is that they use the facts to create their histories. Ignoring facts and making them up, as you do, is frowned upon in the real world.

You also seem confused about the period of Kanishkas rule. And about the significance of carbon dating early Buddhist texts to the 2nd century BCE, and Mahāyāna texts to the 1st century CE.

Please stop wasting everyone's time.

Thursday, July 23, 2015

Blogger Krishnaraj Rao said...

Brilliant. Incisive. Well reasoned. A pleasure to read. Thanks!

Sunday, September 13, 2015

Blogger Jayarava Attwood said...

@Krishnaraj Thanks. Glad you enjoyed it.

Sunday, September 13, 2015

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