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Blogger Alex Kelly said...

Thank you for the recent articles on the Kalama Sutta, I found them interesting and useful. The connection between between sila and the brahma viharas is particulary noteworthy. There are other suttas which seem to indicate that sila is what's forms the basis for the development and expression of the brahma viharas.

Monday, April 25, 2011

Blogger Jayarava said...

Hi Alex

Thanks. I found it fascinating to study the text in detail and think about what it was saying. I would like to follow up the sīla - brahmavihāra link at some point, but I'm quite busy right now. Did you have particular texts in mind?

Tuesday, April 26, 2011

Anonymous star said...

What an interesting point of view you have, Jayarava. I am not sure how you are defining "an apologetic" (Dictionary.com has: "containing an apology or excuse for a fault, failure, insult, injury, etc.; defending by speech or writing") -- as a defense of some inadequacy that you are perceiving? or what? If so, what inadequacy do you feel Buddhists are apologizing for?

Tuesday, April 26, 2011

Blogger Jayarava said...

Hi Star,

The Kālāma Sutta is an apologetic in the sense that it is a defence of Buddhist ideas in the light of other ideas from other teachers who are portrayed in a negative light - as opinionated and aggressive. This is how the text and it's relatives set the scene. Looked at in context, the views being attributed to other people are extreme to the point of caricature. One doesn't do this if one is confident of one's own ground.

I don't know about you, but I see a general defensiveness throughout the Canon, often expressed as hostility towards other religious teachers - the very thing being criticised at the beginning of this text. Compare it, as I suggested, with the Tevijja Sutta where the teachings of Brahmins are empty words etc. The portrayal of Brahmins by Buddhists is almost spiteful. The Jains come off not much better as simply confused. And really this is unnecessary if what we have is so valuable there is no need to attack other teachers. We also find texts which say this very thing.

So I'm not suggesting that there is a particular inadequacy, but that the author of this text quite obviously feels defensive in the face of a competitive religious environment. What the text does is to clumsily try to show how Buddhism is superior. This is more clear when you read the other texts I mention as being the context of the (so-called) Kālāma Sutta. It's what I think of as the Great Buddhist Inferiority Complex - something which persists to this day and manifests in many ways e.g. the obsession with lineage, or the appeal to textual authorities.

It is perhaps inevitable in a minority religion. Buddhism has always had to deal with a lot of competition, not to say hostility. Buddhists are often apparently doubtful about how their path works, always asking and coming up with new answers to the questions: "What is awakening?" and "How can anyone achieve it?".

I would say that polemic and apologetic are two sides of the same coin - i.e. that the motivation underlying the two is often similar.

Wednesday, April 27, 2011

Anonymous star said...

It seems to me that taking the way competing schools are presented in the canon as indicative of an inferiority complex is applying modern thinking to techniques that may not have had the same reasoning behind them 2,500 years ago. The Jains do the same sorts of "spin" on Buddhist principles (-"Buddhists are okay with eating babies"-). It seems to me to have been the style of the times, and attributing modern reasons for doing it may lead us to the wrong conclusions.

I don't see the Kalama story or its ilk apologizing for anything. It is simply saying that if we follow a moral system that results in moral behavior -- that which will be agreed upon in general as moral (as evidenced by the approbation of our society and the good results we get in this life) -- then we're good now and should be good later if there's a cosmic moral system; and if we don't then we lose on both points. I don't even hear him saying that the Buddhist system is on the win-win side though that is of course implied.

Wednesday, April 27, 2011

Blogger Jayarava said...

Star

Of course I am interpreting it in terms of modern categories - that much is obvious. In this case I make no bones about it - this post is a polemic based on the two earlier posts where I dissect the text in some detail, but which themselves are a condensation of my very detailed analysis which I've linked to. I am trying to present an alternative to the Romanticist views usually presented. Views which I think have misrepresented the import of the sutta. "It may lead us to wrong conclusions" as you say, but apart from the aside I am making about the genre of literature that this sutta is, how do you think I might have come to a wrong conclusion about what the text itself says?

You don't seem to have understood the difference between the apologetic as a genre of literature, and the apology as a speech form. I'm not suggesting that anyone is apologising for anything - in fact I see the Kālāma Sutta as doing precisely the opposite, but also suggesting that the motivation behind that is to do with being a minority religion with lots of competition.

I don't follow what you are saying about the morality presented in the Kālāma Sutta. Is it in fact any different from what I've said about the morality of the text in some 1000s of words of writing about it recently? I.e. are you reading all of what I've written, or only that one sentence, or even that one word that seems to bother and confuse you? Because your comments do seem fixated on that one word.

Is it that you disagree, for instance, when I say "The morality it portrays is attractive however, because it it is located in relationship with other people."?

Or do you disagree that "... the connection between morality and the brahmavihāras is explicit. Contra later traditions, here one cultivates loving kindness, compassion etc., primarily through practising the precepts, that is primarily through cultivating non-harming (and its corollaries) towards other people"?

Or is it that when I say "Knowing that they are protected by their own virtue the ideal Buddhist experiences joy, rapture, serenity, bliss and concentration" that somehow this is off the point?

And so on. What is it that you are complaining about?

Thursday, April 28, 2011

Blogger Star said...

I spent the morning writing an answer to your question, Jayarava, but it was too long. I cut it in half, even counted the characters to make sure it was under limit, but blogger still finds it too long. Any suggestions?

Thursday, April 28, 2011

Blogger Jayarava said...

Hi Star

If it's that long I'm unlikely to read it anyway. The question was rhetorical. I'm not interested in a simple clash of interpretations or egos.

I understand the interpretation I have articulated in this post to be one possible interpretation, and not the only one I have considered, and not the only one I could have articulated. It arises from many of hours of study, reflection and discussion with peers, and serves my purpose well enough.

You've had a couple of goes at me over this and I don't see it going anywhere interesting.

Tomorrow is a new blog. I'll be moving on, I suggest you do to.

Thursday, April 28, 2011

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