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Blogger zvolkov said...

These two posts are great manifestation of papanca itself ;) Seriously though I don't share your reservations about "objectification" -- exactly because there is no agent, there may be no subject, and all conceptual entities, including the "I", are just that -- objects or concepts. Perhaps we could translate papanca as "conceptualization" then? In this case I seem to side with Thanissaro Bhikhu on preferring meaningful, rather than literal, translation. After all we don't translate sukha as sweet and dukha as bitter?

Sunday, April 01, 2012

Blogger zvolkov said...

On a separate note, regarding the "contact" -- what I got from my meditations on the subject is a feeling that "contact" was never meant to represent an objective meeting of the external stimula with the sense organs -- that would imply a primitively materialistic outlook. The way I see it, the "contact" is a secondary phenomena, a conceptualization of the process of perception. Just like the six ayatanas are the "six holes" we mistakenly conceptualize our sense organs as, subjectively, "from-inside", the contact is what we make up to explain the vedana arising as a result of recognizable objects "nama-rupa" appearing "on the other side" of one of our "ayatanas". Feel free to dismiss this all though. I'm just speculating here.

Sunday, April 01, 2012

Blogger Jayarava said...

zvolkov - wow I'm bowled over by your humour, have you thought about a career in comedy?

Seriously though, I wrote these pieces in part to get away from the usual pointless clash of opinion that characterises the bulk of blog writing and commentary. I wanted to write something which reflected many hours of thought and reflection, and a comprehensive survey of the Pāli literature taking many days, and which would, therefore be difficult to just disagree with without much thought. I thought I had succeeded until this morning.

You make an entirely false distinction between an interpretative translation (which you erroneously label 'meaningful') and conceptual translations (which you erroneously label 'literal').

All translations are to some extent an interpretation and to some extent meaningful, though some more than others. My point is that there is a process where one identifies the semantic field of a word generally, and then one takes into account how it it used in practice.
What we would usually refer to as denotation and connotation.

A native speaker will be aware of many nuances of connotation in reading or listening to communication in their mother tongue. A non Pāli speaker is not aware of the nuances of Pāli texts unless the translator makes them aware of them (and most do not). If you had read my posts carefully then you would understand that there is considerable ambiguity and subtlety here - this is a concept which most translators and commentators have over-simplified.

I'm quite aware that most readers actually want something they can understand without effort and so they lap up the over-simplification. This becomes opinion worth defending because they feel good about having understood something. But what have they understood? What is being defended? Because so few people take the time to properly understand what is in the texts, and so few people actually experience insight, we have these pointless discussions about preferences or what the Buddha called vinicchaya kubbati fuelling the process of papañca.

By the way there is no approach to translation where the Pāli word sukha means 'sweet' or the word dukkha means 'bitter'. So I'm not sure what you are talking about. Also there are two ks in dukkha because in Sanskrit the prefix is dus- and the spelling is duḥkha (with a sandhi) which in Pāli becomes dukkha.

Ironically having jocularly accused me of papañca you yourself provide a very excellent example of it with your speculations. "Just speculating" and opposing your opinions to mine is exactly what we are warned against in these texts.

Anyway I'm so glad to learn of your preferences and opinions and I will certainly keep them in mind in the future. Don't let me keep you from your meditation.

Jayarava

Sunday, April 01, 2012

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