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Blogger Michael Dorfman said...

A wonderful article, Jayarava, and one I agree with completely.

I know that Continental Philosophy is not high on your list of interests, but you might be interested to know that there is a long tradition of looking at this problem running from Nietzsche to Derrida.

Nietzsche puts it quite concisely:

What then is truth? A movable army of metaphors, metonymies, and; anthropomorphisms: in short, a sum of human relations which have been poetically and rhetorically intensified, transferred, and embellished, and which, after long usage, seem to a people to be fixed, canonical, and binding. Truths are illusions which we have forgotten are illusions- they are metaphors that have become worn out and have been drained of sensuous force, coins which have lost their embossing and are now considered as metal and no longer as coins.

My only minor quibble with your piece is about the particular valuation around the metaphor of "reducibility"-- in metaphysical terms, the fundamental (i.e., "down") is actually privileged, as the object is to arrive at those most basic building blocks which are foundational.

Thus a materialist would wish to reduce experience to matter, and an idealist would wish to reduce matter to experience, as one reduces the fraction 48/96 to 1/2; the smaller values are actually more useful. And this is why there are philosophers who proudly refer to themselves as "Reductionists" or "Eliminativists"; they are not perjorative terms in this context.

Friday, April 26, 2013

Blogger Jayarava said...

Hi Michael

Thanks. I felt especially pleased with this essay as it not only managed to work Lakoff into the discussion, but it resolved some problems for me. I think I finally see anti-materialism in a context that makes sense.

Do you have a citation for the Nietzsche quote - I almost didn't publish it! No quotes without citations! I'm aware that metaphor has a long tail. But I think we have to see all that in the light of Lakoff - most of it can be dispensed with.

I think we need to distinguish between what Mercier & Sperber refer to as 'intuitive beliefs' and 'reflective beliefs'. Philosophers tends to profess reflective beliefs - conclusions they've explicitly thought through along with the justifications they like for those conclusion. But we all have beliefs that we intuit subconsciously. These metaphors I'm discussing have little to do with reflective beliefs, and nothing at all to do with the reflective beliefs of philosophers.

When I discuss MATTER IS BASIC I am critiquing what I see as an intuitive belief, i.e. an the unconscious use of one of the metaphors that transparently structure our thoughts. There's no doubt that a foundation has value - the metaphor of the foundation holding up the edifice is also available to us. And I understand your personal slant on it. But I'm talking about the matter/spirit dichotomy in this essay rather than foundations more generally. And although I see what you are saying, I don't think it's relevant to this specific discussion.

I've known a few materialists over the decades, most of them scientists rather than philosophers, and I don't recall any one of them saying that experience could be reduced to matter. What they tend to say is that experience ought to be comprehensible in terms of physical processes: i.e. consciousness is not explained by the brain qua matter, but the activity of the brain. Hence sometimes they are called "physicalist" which is somewhat more accurate. Let us not forget that materialism encompasses the concepts of energy, fields, motion, and forces.

BTW 48/96 is quite valuable if you are adding 1/2 + 1/48 + 1/32 (=53/96).

It's possible to see all these things as dynamic and interactional instead of static and isolated. And, as above, I would argue that you tend to see matter as static and isolated because your prototype of matter, your intuitive belief, is that way despite your philosophy.

What I am not arguing about, and not interested in arguing about, is metaphysical positions taken by philosophers.

As I keep saying I'm interested in the thinking behind people accusing me of being a materialist and the, what we might call, "anti-materialist" conclusions of people I know (none of whom I would describe as a philosopher). This is the context of the last 3 essays. I have tried to make this explicit, maybe I need to do more on that score?

Friday, April 26, 2013

Blogger Michael Dorfman said...

The Nietzsche is from "On Truth and Lies in an Extra-Moral Sense", which is a wonderful, brief, early essay I think you would enjoy.

And I'm sorry I keep viewing things through the lens of the philosophical tradition-- habit, I guess. I do understand that your project and targets are different.

Friday, April 26, 2013

Blogger Jayarava Attwood said...

Hi Michael

It's all right. We all have our lenses. I'll look up the Nietzsche essay.

Friday, April 26, 2013

Blogger Buddhist_philosopher said...

Hia Jayarava - I liked this essay very much as well.

One small quibble I have (and we've discussed this a bit before in relation to McMahon's book) is the identification of many Western Buddhists with Romanticism. I don't have time to tie together the references now, but in short, it must be noted that the German Romantics were influenced by Buddhism and other Asian thought. Much of what they came up with (Thanissaro mentions terms such as " interconnectedness, wholeness, ego-transcendence") was their attempts to interpret what they saw as the wisdom of the East.

August Wilhelm Schlegel (1767-1845) himself was an early Sanskritist, and one of Kant's teachers - I don't remember which - had studied Chinese (I believe Taoist) literature. So when authors say these ideas 'come *from* the Romantics' it might be better to say that they come *through* the Romantics.

The Romantics were successful in shaping how we talk about these things, but they didn't invent the ideas. I agree that there are a fair number of contemporary Buddhist crypto-Romantics, Sangharakshita perhaps being foremost among them, but when I read his works, years ago, the fact that his Romanticism that struck me as 'odd' - even in relation to my FWBO teachers at the time, suggests to me at least that he was a bit of an outlier. Admittedly, I can only speak from my own experience, and most Buddhists I know have advanced degrees in Buddhist Studies, where we are usually taught to be very wary of the slightest smell of Romanticism. So perhaps I'm the outlier. :)

Thursday, May 16, 2013

Blogger Jayarava Attwood said...

hi Justin

Yep. I think this is a fair point. Ideas always have histories and history is far from linear. And the early Sanskritists have been very influential - inventing the modern science of linguistic on the back of Pāniṇi.

I have some reservations based on general knowledge however. The Sanskritists did not learn much about Buddhism, and indeed were frequently unable to distinguish it from Hinduism. What they did learn was very much provisional and seen relatively uncritically through the cultural lens of the day - and this is before critical social science got started.

The transfer was complex. And once the Rhys Davids really got going in 1881 (found year of the Pali Text Society) they added a strong flavour of European Enlightenment. This is why we understand bodhi to mean "enlightenment" when it means no such thing.

One of the things I've learned in studying Indian religious history is that cross fertilisation and hybridisation are the norm rather than the exception.

Sangharakshita is nothing if not an outlier! Although the Triratna movement (as we call ourselves these days) is probably the largest single Buddhist movement in the UK these days - so we're now kind of mainstream. Such is the lot of the successful anti-establishment movement.

As I mentioned to David Chapman these essays are strongly rhetorical. Not that the people I would like to read them are likely to. We have a strong critique of scientific rationalism, and a much weaker critique of Protestantism (only Sangharakshita's awful and rather embarrassing book on the subject). But no critique at all of Romanticism. I'd like to see us develop that critique in order not to be trapped in our own cultural conditioning. I myself was blind to our Romanticism (and it goes much further than Sangharakshita!) until reading McMahan and Thanissaro. Although I never really did warm to hippies (my views on them were formed by Frank Zappa). Now I tend to highlight it as an unexamined view, and to play up the weaknesses. I meet many crypto-Buddhists in daily life.

Like all new ideas Romanticism was addressing issues relevant to it's day. They surely cast about for ideas with which to sculpt a response. Today we have new issues that require new thinking. I'd say our disengagement with politics is disastrous, for instance, and has played into the hands of the Neoliberals.

Anyway, thanks for commenting.

Regards
Jayarava

Thursday, May 16, 2013

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