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Blogger Swanditch said...

Excellent exposition. I think I'll get my saxophone.

Thursday, February 14, 2013

Blogger novalis78 said...

Where do I sign up to become (LOL) one of those "NeoSautrāntika" - great post, wonderful summary, very sharp and clear argumentation. Sadhu! for the clarity.

Friday, February 22, 2013

Blogger Jayarava said...

"Where do I sign up to become (LOL) one of those "NeoSautrāntika" - I'm tempted to say "send me a shit load of money" but I couldn't do it with a straight face.

Really it ought to be navasautrāntika.

Cheers
Jayarava

Friday, February 22, 2013

Blogger wildfox said...

Did I understand you correctly? Let me ask from the standpoint of 'cognition'. None of our sensory organs perceive an accurate or complete comprehension of reality. What the senses do perceive and process are 'working versions' of the objects of reality, and these 'working versions' are called dharmas. ???

Saturday, February 23, 2013

Blogger Jayarava said...

Hi Wildfox,

I think we need to understand this in it's own framework rather than projecting other concepts on to it. Once we do understand it as is, then we have a better chance of interpreting it from our own point of view.

The physical senses do not perceive or comprehend. They just sense. They are simply doors through which we experience the world. Perception and comprehension are functions of the manas sense.

It is very important to be clear that reality does not come into it. There is no traditional term word corresponding to our sense of what reality means. We are just not interested in reality. We are interested in experience. Experience is neither real nor unreal - it is dependently arisen.

Experience is the product of the interaction of our sensory system with objects in the light of sense-awareness to produce our world.

sense organ + sense object + sense awareness > vedanā etc.

Experience is grainy and can be analysed into discreet units i.e. dharmas. Dharmas are the identifiable building blocks of experience. Even the most rigorous Abhidharma account of dharmas is pre-scientific and thus not systematic from our modern perspective. So the systems which enumerate dharmas need to be seen in context. And the context is pre-scientific meditative communities trying to understand their experience, especially the experience of disappointment.

Dharmas are experiential - they are neither existent nor non-existent. In modern terms they have no clear ontological status and ontological language - the language of 'being' (including 'non-being') - is inappropriately applied to them.

Importantly the argument is against the self-existence of dharmas - experience is not made up of persistent atoms that simply rearrange themselves into new forms to suit our experience. No. Even dharmas arise in dependence on causes. Thus dharmas are svabhāva śūnyatā.

All experience is just this. And all experience is fleeting. But because of tricks of perception we think that experience lasts. Some objects are quite persistent - a diamond might be stable for a million years. But we don't see that each moment the experience is renewed, and is subtly different each time if only because our attention wanders over the object seeing first this facet and then that. Contemplating the object with respect to our memories and fantasies etc.

Crucially our first person perspective is also a conditioned experience. Our 'self' is also just an experience - arising and passing away in the moment.

The idea here is to outline a reason to practice and to draw attention to experience in order to understand it's nature. In taking on this doctrine it is hoped that we might examine dharmas in our own experience (preferably from the standpoint of samādhi) and see for ourselves what is going on.

I hope this helps.
Jayarava

Saturday, February 23, 2013

Blogger Swanditch said...

That comment alone could profitably be published as a pamphlet.

Saturday, February 23, 2013

Blogger Jayarava said...

Thanks.

Saturday, February 23, 2013

Blogger SFlanigan said...

That was a great read. It really is emptiness for beginners. I did enjoy the follow up comments as well. I never considered that the Dharma is what is empty and not the object (if I got that right).

Saturday, February 23, 2013

Blogger Jayarava said...

@SFlanigan It's a bit confusing because there is the teaching (dharma) and the elements of experience (also dharma). So it's not that "the Dharma" (singular, capitalised = the teaching) is empty, but only "the dharmas" (plural, lower case = elements of experience).

Capice?

Dharma is used in several other senses as well just to make things complicated. See Dharma: Buddhist Terminology for an outline of the various uses.

Jayarava

Saturday, February 23, 2013

Blogger SFlanigan said...

''So it's not that "the Dharma" (singular, capitalised = the teaching) is empty, but only "the dharmas" (plural, lower case = elements of experience).''

So, does this mean that the Dharma (singular, capitalised = the teaching) is not an element of experience according to the framework? Is it commmonly considered by the practitioner to be independent of experience? Or is this really too pedantic to matter as it applies to practice?

Friday, March 29, 2013

Blogger Jayarava said...

@SFlanigan I think this is heading into pedantic territory. But it's not surprising, in a way, because Buddhists have long wrangled in this way.

Are we clear that empty here refers to emptiness of svabhāva or self-existence? No experience is caused by itself, but relies on conditions. The conditions are particularly the existence of sense objects, the possession of senses, and a mind capable of interpreting raw sensations.

Is your question whether the Dharma qua teaching has or lacks svabhāva? Or in other words does the Dharma stand outside of experience?

My understanding is that the objective world is a given for early Buddhism - the objects of the senses do exist independent of the senses, but we only ever know them through the senses. Thus I always qualify 'object' as 'object of the senses'. There may well be a whole objective world we are not party to because we lack the requisite senses. Many animals possess sensory abilities we do not - sensing electro-magnetic fields for example, or ultraviolet light.

This directs us back to experience itself. To have knowledge of the Dharma qua teaching we have to experience it - hear it, read it, etc. Thus any knowledge we have of the Dharma lacks svabhāva and there is no way to know if there is more to it than this because the only sources of knowledge are the senses.

What many Buddhists have done is to infer things about the Dharma. We infer that the principles of the impermanence of experience, the unsatisfactoriness of experience, the insubstantiality of experience, are universal and would be true even if no one knew they were true. Drawing such inferences is very much part of Buddhism as a religion.

But this still leaves you with the metaphysical problem - in what sense can such a principle be said to "exist"? Kant's solution to similar problems, particularly space-time and causality, was that they were a priori internal frameworks through which we make sense of experience. It may be that the principle of svabhāvaśūnya is another a priori framework that helps to structure experience. I honestly don't know.

In any case although it's possible to have the discussion, and on any number of terms, it should not distract from the practice of seeing what one sees, hearing what one hears etc. Although obviously I am also prone to be distracted in just this way (I preach to myself without much progress).

Friday, March 29, 2013

Blogger SFlanigan said...

Thank you. The posts and the comments help to make these ideas more accessible to me. Even if we manage to bypass the communication issues you confront through etymology and diachronic evaluations, etc. There is still the issue of the student being a student. So thank you for taking the time to do this stuff.

Saturday, March 30, 2013

Blogger Jayarava said...

@SFlanigan. Thanks. It's my belief that these ideas have been obscured by confused thinking and can be presented in ways that are not so mystical. It's been interesting to attempt this.

Saturday, March 30, 2013

OpenID tvstvs said...

Are you familiar with the work of Bhikkhu Nanananda?

http://www.seeingthroughthenet.net/files/eng/books/ms/html/Mind%20Stilled.htm

Also, I'd say one should always keep the Sabba Sutta in mind.

Friday, October 18, 2013

Blogger Jayarava Attwood said...

@tvstvs

Not come across Nanandanda. If you post links try to say why it is relevant - I am always totally overwhelmed with things to read and a bare link or name is unlikely to get my attention.

I always do keep the Sabba Sutta in mind ;-)

But keep in mind that śūnyatā also extends beyond the Pāli texts because it speaks to doctrinal developments that happened long after the suttas were fixed.

Friday, October 18, 2013

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